Drax240z Posted October 19, 2000 Share Posted October 19, 2000 I was just looking through some links that were posted here, and I came across this. Its off a Ford Powerstroke diesel. Stats are: -23 tubes, 1/2 inch by 2 inch. -39 inches wide, 18 inches tall, 2.5 inches thick overall (plus inlet & outlet). -The core measures 18" tall, 30" wide, 2" thick. -3 inch inlet and outlet Scottie, how does this compare to the NPR you are running? ------------------ "THE STREETS WILL FLOW WITH THE OIL OF THE NON-BELIEVERS" Drax240z 1972 240z - L28TURBO transplant on the way! http://members.xoom.com/r_lewis/datsun.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted October 19, 2000 Author Share Posted October 19, 2000 Another interesting point, cost is $295. (not sure if that is from ford or another shop) ------------------ "THE STREETS WILL FLOW WITH THE OIL OF THE NON-BELIEVERS" Drax240z 1972 240z - L28TURBO transplant on the way! http://members.xoom.com/r_lewis/datsun.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy 77zt Posted October 20, 2000 Share Posted October 20, 2000 i am a tech at a ford dealer -those things are huge!i will have to measure one -i dont think a z has a big enough front end to hold one of these.i get parts at cost + 20%.maybe i will have to warrenty one for a small leak hehe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jason Posted October 20, 2000 Share Posted October 20, 2000 I don't know much about intercoolers, but I had this idea that you could make your own air-water-air intercooler. Take a small intercooler that flows well, put it in a water tank, and run an electric water pump from the tank to a second radiator. You could put some baffles in the tank to promote even water circulation across the submerged intercooler. You wouldn't need a very big tank, just something that would fit the intercooler. Water provides much better heat transfer than air, and the high specific heat would keep water from heating up quickly, keeping the temperature down for short sprints. I don't see a benefit if the car is under boost for extended periods of time, but I think it would work well for 1/4 mile or street use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy 77zt Posted October 20, 2000 Share Posted October 20, 2000 jason -they have water air intercoolers-goto spearco website.the honda guys drag race with these by running ice water through them from ice chest and 12 volt rv water pump.i dont know how long water would stay cold on street.in the middle 80s i installed a water ic kit in a 280 zx .but i cant remember where kit came from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 20, 2000 Share Posted October 20, 2000 There are very few OE intercoolers that are worth more than their weight in poop, and I've seen almost all of them. Most car units and all truck units leave lots to be desired, they're big, inefficient, have high pressure drops, and are usually of questionable quality. Cyclones/typhoons have decent water cooled ICs that go for $100-200 used, but have a goofy oval shaped outlet. I believe there is one on ebay now. The best OE unit I've seen is mk4 supra(ie. twin turbo supra). They're readily available on the supra mailing list for $100 and under!!! They easily support 400+ horsepower and are very compact and decently efficient. Do not confuse them with mk3(ie. single turbo supras) intercoolers which are about as bad as you can get. Also note that intercoolers that are too large lose efficiency by slowing the compressed air down so much that heat transfer drops off and temperatures rise. One that is too small only increases pressure drop(easily fixed by upping boost, unless you have an undersized turbo). Spearco provides flow/efficiency charts for all of their cores on their web site, use them. There is absolutely no replacement for a properly sized high quality intercooler(Like a spearco ), spend the buckage up front and get a good one. If you take care of your intercooler and don't stick it right up front where it gets pelted with rocks, it will last virtually forever. ------------------ Morgan morgan@z31.com http://carfiche.com http://z31.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clint78z Posted October 20, 2000 Share Posted October 20, 2000 Don't forget one thing in short blasts like in town driving, stop light wars the bigger the better . With little air flow the intercooler acts like a heatsink, the bigger it is the more heat it can absorb . I think the powerstroke is a good option and I looked at one before . I think the Isuzu NPR is a good unit as well . Thing I look for when looking for an intercooler . a) size end tank design that allow a good transition and feeds all tubes equally . Both the powerstroke and the NPR would be a good value . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 20, 2000 Share Posted October 20, 2000 It can't act as a heat sink if the core is so large that heat transfer is reduced.... If the core is too large then the compressed air slows down so much that the internal fins can't mix the air adequately and efficiency falls through the floor. Size alone is the absolute worst physical charasteristic you can judge an intercooler by. ------------------ Morgan morgan@z31.com http://carfiche.com http://z31.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clint78z Posted October 20, 2000 Share Posted October 20, 2000 Umm I am not sure what you are driving at, I could be misinterperting what you are saying . I design boilers and heat exchangers are part of my design . Surface area is one of the major keys to heat exchange as well as the temperature difference . The amount of airflow will be constant car to car . The fin design plays a role in effeciency . The end tanks are a big part of the design, there job is to equally distribute air between tubes and minumize the frictional losses . The reasons why a big intercooler is good is that a) it provides more surface area for heat exchange due to it mass it provides a bigger heat sink it stays cooler longer c) by stacking more tubes you are putting less air though one tube, therefore the air does not travel as fast through the intercooler . This maximizes the time the air is in the intercooler and allows more time to cool off . The airflow over the fins will stay constant at the same MPH and will be the same no matter what intercooler you put it . I would like to dicuss this further if others are intrested . quote: Originally posted by Morgan: It can't act as a heat sink if the core is so large that heat transfer is reduced.... If the core is too large then the compressed air slows down so much that the internal fins can't mix the air adequately and efficiency falls through the floor. Size alone is the absolute worst physical charasteristic you can judge an intercooler by. [This message has been edited by clint78z (edited October 20, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 20, 2000 Share Posted October 20, 2000 The internal cross sectional area. When it is overly large the airflow slows down so much that the internal fins don't effectively mix the air, resulting in inadequate heat transfer. Yes, there are fins inside as well as outside an intercooler. Maximal outside size and surface area are of course good, but too much flow area inside is very bad, worse than an undersized intercooler even. There are lots of good books on turbocharging and lots of good turbomachinery and heat transfer books out there that go into excruciating detail on intercooler design and caveats such as too much flow area. ------------------ Morgan morgan@z31.com http://carfiche.com http://z31.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted October 20, 2000 Author Share Posted October 20, 2000 Morgan raises a good point. I've experimented with plate heat exchangers, (industrial) and I remember one situation where we had varied the number of plates in the heat exchanger from 7, up to 13 plates. (increasing the size) We found that the lower velocity and therefore less turbulance did in fact have a negative effect on our heat transfer. We eventually settled on the most efficient setup, 9 plates. BUT, my example is of a titanium HTX water-water, and a relatively slow ~5.0L/min. I have the feeling if I did the same experiment with a large air to air intercooler, you'd find this point to occur at a VERY large volume, much larger than the size of the "large" intercoolers out there today. I guess what I am saying is that there is a lot more volume of air going through than most people realize, at 14psi boost, at 7000rpm on a 2.8L engine we are talking 39,200LITERS of atmospheric pressure air a minute! While Morgans point is valid, I believe that the relatively small size of ANY automotive intercooler compared to the 40,000L of air minute that it sees, is undersized... and therefore has a high air velocity through it. ------------------ "THE STREETS WILL FLOW WITH THE OIL OF THE NON-BELIEVERS" Drax240z 1972 240z - L28TURBO transplant on the way! http://members.xoom.com/r_lewis/datsun.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted October 20, 2000 Share Posted October 20, 2000 I agree with Morgan that most OEM I/Cs are not very efficient, but there are exceptions. We can argue all the technical points until we are blue in the face but the bottom line is that the racers know which OEMs work. You do not see powerful turbo cars using the Starion unit, but there is a 8-second Rotary here in town using an NPR. As for the NPR, I will continue to use it until I can design and make my own air-to-water or get a good buy on a used Spearco a/w unit. I expect I will be over 400hp (at the wheels) by then. This unit just flat works. As for the original question, The NPR I have has a core size of 19.3H x 16.5W x 2. It is taller than the standard NPR. Both are 28.5" at the widest point. ------------------ Scottie 71 240GN-Z http://www.mindspring.com/~vscott911/gnz.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 20, 2000 Share Posted October 20, 2000 Keep in mind that with the vastly higher density of water(as opposed to air) that you need to have exponentially slower flow velocity to have the same mixing problems. Or put another way, with the vastly lower density of air, you have the same mixing problems at an exponentially higher flow rate than that of water. That was just one of my points about intercoolers, the others being inferior size, packaging, quality, and efficiencies of many OE intercoolers. Truck intercoolers in particular are large, bulky(usually thin and with large frontal area), and often of low quality(large size makes them more flexable, yadda yadda yadda). I'll say it again, companies(like spearco) make intercoolers that are so far ahead of others that it's not even funny. This is ALL they do, make intercoolers(and now radiators for spearco). A quality intercooler that is sized properly for your application(Engine size, typical operating speed, airflow over IC, and amount of boost) is worth every penny you pay for it and then some. Spearco even has a new line of cores that have the fins(don't know if it's the internal or external fins) extruded along with the plates, so the fins and tubes are molecularly one piece, with no mechanical method of joining them. This hugely increases heat transfer, but is more expensive of course. the mk4 supra intercoolers are very nice, I have one collecting dust just waiting to go into my 240 once I get the engine in ------------------ Morgan morgan@z31.com http://carfiche.com http://z31.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted October 20, 2000 Author Share Posted October 20, 2000 Morgan, where did you pick up the Mark IV one? Just wondering where to look... also I'd appreciate a picture if you knew where one was. I just realized how huge the ford one is, the core is nearly 10" wider than the large NPR one that Scottie uses, the other dimentions are similar. ------------------ "THE STREETS WILL FLOW WITH THE OIL OF THE NON-BELIEVERS" Drax240z 1972 240z - L28TURBO transplant on the way! http://members.xoom.com/r_lewis/datsun.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted October 20, 2000 Author Share Posted October 20, 2000 The one on ebay right now is from a 92, which IIRC is a Mark III. (1986.5 - 1993.5?) I'll keep my eyes open for one though. (pictures too) ------------------ "THE STREETS WILL FLOW WITH THE OIL OF THE NON-BELIEVERS" Drax240z 1972 240z - L28TURBO transplant on the way! http://members.xoom.com/r_lewis/datsun.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 20, 2000 Share Posted October 20, 2000 Was wondering about that..... it says twin turbo though, so who knows. Get him to send you the picture and you can tell instantly. Get on supra mailing list, they always available for the asking. ------------------ Morgan morgan@z31.com http://carfiche.com http://z31.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 21, 2000 Share Posted October 21, 2000 Damn. I had pictures of one I saved from ebay, but I can't find them now. grrrrr. There's one on ebay now for $40(Dayum! I paid $150 for one once!) and they are readily available on the supra mailing list, just ask and 5-10 people will offer theirs for anywhere from $50 up to $300. They're about 12cm thick and roughly 25x30cm frontal area(The core only, ie. not end tanks). Very compact frontal dimensions and very thick. Fits nicely in the nose of a s30 The inlets are 2.5 inch, one extends axially from the core(inline with the tubes) and the other extends at a sharp angle away(almost perpendicular to the tubes). ------------------ Morgan morgan@z31.com http://carfiche.com http://z31.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clint78z Posted October 23, 2000 Share Posted October 23, 2000 Some really good points, I didn't know the Spearco had internal fins. Morgan raised some good points . I see alot of nasty end tanks on some good cores, something that should not be overlooked . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 23, 2000 Share Posted October 23, 2000 All intercoolers have internal fins. At least all that I've ever seen and all that I know of do. They're necessary to ensure adequate mixing of the compressed air, which is very low density compared to, say, water. ------------------ Morgan morgan@z31.com http://carfiche.com http://z31.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Morgan, U stated that all intercooler have internal fins, check out the Starion intercooler! It does not have a internal fins at all and that is the main reason why I took it out of my Z. Just because the intercooler is big does not usually mean that it is efficient intercooler. Later. Milo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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