Guest Anonymous Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 I'm reading about these Supra motors and am seeing "unlimited potential" and "easy 600HP" thrown about. If these motors (and cars) are so easy to build these kinds of power levels, why are they not more common (or dominating for that matter) in amateur and privateer racing, both in drag racing and in road racing? I'm not knocking them at all, please...Please...PLEASE don't start the flamethrowers yet. I actually, honestly, truly am curious about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Azel Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 What you've heard are not exaggerations. This is quite possibly one of the most overbuilt factory engines ever. I don't think there are too many 3.0L six cylinders out there that could squeeze 600HP on STOCK internals. It's one to build an engine that could make that kind of horsepower but to do it on stock internals for thousands of miles is amazing. There are people out there who have 700HP daily driver Supras, just check out T04R.com. To answer you question, maybe it's because the Supra motor is a rather rare and expensive motor. The tranny isn't worth pocket-change either. But I really think that question was somewhat vague. Are you asking why Supra motors aren't a popular swap into other vehicles? When you say racing, what kind of racing do you mean? Drag, track? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 Op1, if you follow drag racing but are limited to NHRA on ESPN, you will never see any Supras or Supra-powered cars. For those who follow import drag racing, Vinny Ten and Craig Paisley are legends with Supras running low to mid-8s in the mid-160mph range. The Supra was run in road racing in the Speedvision GT series but had limited success because the team was not well funded, the car suffered from braking woes and the competition, 911s and C-5s, was just too tough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Azel Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 Yeah I remember seeing the yellow Supra in the Speedvision GT Series. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I know, that car was driven by a privateer, Allan Mello (I think?) who also happened to the be driver and the crew consisted of family and friends who volunteered, not exactly a professional outfit like team Real Time. Some of the commentators mentioned at the beginning of the season that the car was having engine tuning problems and next to the Porsche 928 , who coincidentally was not very competitive also, was the heaviest car in the circuit. I'm sure if the car was twin-turbo, had sufficient funding and cut down it's weight drastically it would have been very competitive. You can't compete against the dominating efforts of the Audi S4's, Cunningham's Real Time NSX and a handful of Porsches and Vettes without 100% effort. But if you look in Japan, Supra's are rather successful in JGTC circuit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 The Supra I was thinking of was yellow but it was campaigned by Dave Schardt(sp?). He gave up and runs a competitive 911. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 I'm getting the idea now...I guess I was wondering because people refer to the Supra Mk4 TTs with such reverence, as though everything else pales. They also say things like "Only 500hp? Pretty tame...". You get the idea that a handful of bolt ons and "presto!", 750 hp. When I said racing, I did mean both kinds...drags and sportscar type road racing. I said privateer because I think a factory sponsored Toyota effort would be more geared toward F1 or Prototype Le Mans type racing. I'm nowhere near an expert on the subject either. I suspect some of the answer to my questions may also be why turbos aren't more prevalent. With the idea that a turbo motor can be powerful AND efficient, you'd think they'd be everywhere. But I guess the expense mixed with (relative) complexity keeps alot of people at bay. Then again, I probably missed the mark entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 Okay... I'm a HybridZ member who just happens to have purchased a Supra TT so I think I can speak a little bit about this. I'm still learning but.... To get 600RWHP you need a single turbo kit (SP63 is my choice from SoundPerformance), dual fuel stock or Walbro pumps, upgraded injectorsrail, front mount intercooler, and fuel management. In my case the fuel management will be AEM's new PnP ECU for $1365. Those mods ought to get you 600RWHP. Maybe a few other little mods like fuel lines and cam gears (15-25RWHP) but mostly that's it - single turbos on these cars rule! They sell cams too but for this power level I don't think it's needed... My car is presently mostly stock. It has a K&N cone filter, downpipe, exhaust, and free mods. Dynoed this Saturday right off the street my car made 327RWHP (stock is 320 at the crank) on stock boost which is around 11PSI. I reset the ECU and got 338RWHP. I then pulled the wastegate hose and got 389RWHP and 427ftlbs with about 1.4BAR. My fuel ran down to about 9:1 on that last run and there was a sag in the curve just before the 2nd turbo came online which is apparently caused by one of the free mods. I've actually found out that I'm down about 50RWHP with those numbers from some of the better tuned cars. The free mods done to my car are poor substitutes for doing things "right" but let me tell you it's a wild ride! My next mods will be to put the electronics back to stock and add the AEM ECU to tune things "correctly" rather than tricking sensors as I am now When done I too wish to push 600RWHP on a single turbo! That's on the stock trans and rear too. The clutch has already been replaced Drivetrain wise I should need to replace nothing else. Some things about the Supra you ought to know - stock fuel system can run 550HP. Compression is 8.5:1 and headgaskets seldom blow. Boost as high as 30PSI is run with little worries so long as you don't go lean Stock bottom ends have taken over 800RWHP and 600 is actually common on stock bottom ends! Go into the SupraForums dynoperformance area and look at the dyno sheets, it's sick. Some heavily tunedmodded cars are making 900RWHP. Launching one of these pigs is the trick - my rear axle tramps pretty good when I've tried. Never race a Supra from a roll or on the highway - when he hits full boost and can put it down without fear of spinning he's GONE! It literally feels like a roller coaster ride in my car. Many Supra owners have mentioned not being able to get traction until 4th gear - in second it's dicey for me and the car darts like mad, 3rd isn't too bad but I've not done many WOT runs in that gear yet. I'm running 275 Nitto drag radials BTW and I might move up to 315s if they'll fit. I could go on but you get the idea. These motors are stout, flow lot's of air, and so long as you keep the mixture right won't blow up. Making that much power in a car that streetable really isn't that expensive but the price of admission - a Supra - isn't cheap. I paid $27K for mine (sticker was $51K BTW) and I'm sure I will be $10K deeper into it before I'm really happy. If you put that drivetrain in another car though it should be MUCH more economical. Motors and transmissions pop up for sale on SupraForums somewhat often. Toyota shortblocks are like $2500, ported heads as low as $1500, transmissions for say $1500. The turbo could cost $3K though. NOT real cheap but the power is sick and it's certainly a different swap If anyone has any questions I'll try to answer them, I'm NOT an expert but I'm learning just as fast as I can which is why I've not been on this board quite so much. This car is the GN of the 90's guys and I'm happy to say I own one. Now if I could just sell my RX7.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 Oh - the central question as to why you don't see them out there... First - not many of them are around and they aren't cheap. Many are quite simply dyno queens. Look at the power curves some of these cars make - 150RWHP at say 2K but by 4K they're putting down 700. What will hold that sudden spike of power to the road?! Seriously, go look at some of the dyno sheets on SupraForums. When they're put in the hands of someone skilled though watch out! Single digit ETs are right there. The SP63 kit I mentioned above - it's good for 10s tuned and driven correctly Traction for a Supra is very hard to come by... Road coarses? Supras are heavy. They have awesome brakes but they look a little like a hippo on skates. I'm still feeling mine out but it's no RX7 that's for sure! Come the first straight though and i'm zipping up on you Some do roadrace them but not as many as say the 240Zs. The power curves for these cars are probably just not terribly suited for it. I put a (modified) 2001 Lightning truck curve up against my Supra's dyno sheet the other night. The Lightning made power faster and held it longer than my car. In two cars weighinghandling the same I'd have been eaten alive even though my car made just a touch more power on the top end. Peak horsepower, while cool for bragging rights, is NOT the be all end all.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 I see what you're getting at with power curve vs. peak power. I've heard alot of drivers say they prefer, say the naturally aspirated power of a Viper or Z06 on a road course over a turbo car --- BUT ---Don't most of the high end racers, like F1 and Le Mans series, still use fairly small displacement motors turbo'd all to hell??? I thought they did anyways. Many would argue that these are the "ultimate forms" of road course type of racing. I should stick to rally racing -- no need for ludicrous power. Thought of trying to setup a Z for this... Nonetheless, this is quite an education about the Supra motors, I really knew nothing about them. My dad should be very afraid (he's your run of the mill, Corvette a--hole). I think it's funny that I was just beginning to get into researching Mazda Rotaries...I almost skipped right by these. LOL!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Azel Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 I totally agree with Blckmgk. Supra motors can make monstrous power but in most cases they are totally unusable. In fact years ago, we had a MKIII Supra in the family and although you can make some serious power with the older straight six, it was almost unusuable beyond 300hp. Definitely not the type of power curve you're looking for if you're a road racer or want a daily drivable beast. In fact, I'd prefer a larger displacement, preferably a V8, engine with twin turbos making say 400-450 horses than say a 2JZ running a big T66 or T04 turbo. IMO it would probably be even cheaper to turbo an LS1 to around 450 horses than swapping to single turbo on the Supra to make that kind of power. The point being, total horsepower figures aren't really what matters but power curve. Op1, you're probably better off asking Supra questions here than visiting some of the Supra forums. If you do, you had better have thick skin because a lot of the Supra guys are egotistical maniacs who think they own our publics roads are not a very likeable bunch. We once had a MKIII Supra in the family and if you don't have the last gen Supra TT with manual tranny, you probably won't get respect from those guys. A friend of who has a '95 TT auto hates the Supra community because they still think the idea of having a 500hp auto is a joke (in fact, the ones with auto transmissions seem to be faster in street races). Blckmgk, don't take any offense. I hope you don't turn out like those guys! Knowing that there forums out there that are more concerned with posting kill stories than welcoming others makes me feel really good about HybridZ. I get that warm fuzzy feeling...don't you???! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAZU Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 This is rather off topic, but Supras in JGTC circuit were running with 3SGT 2 liter turbo. Kazu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tim78zt Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 Hey BLKMGK, I noticed the HP/torque figures you quoted for your car show more torque than HP, but in the latest Turbo magazine, which covers several tuned Supras and includes dyno graphs, they show more HP than torque. How can a Supra have more HP than torque? Tim78zt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted January 13, 2002 Share Posted January 13, 2002 Soem of the Supra guys are a bit much - it really doesn't help that there are some guys out there who join those forums JUST to be jerks, I mean that literally. They make smartass answers to question just to see blood boil, it's sad really and I'm thankful we don't have that here. The Supra mailing list is better IMO, lot's of tech talk and less B.S. however if you post a truly stupid question on there you WILL get flamed. These guys are simply sick of answering the same questions a million times. Sometimes I feel that way here too and I know others do as well but hey, it happens and so far we've managed to hold our tongues Hrm, and as for cost to make 450RWHP with a Supra motor - you can do that with the stock turbos and some tuning Recall that mine made 389RWHP with A/F as rich as 9:1! I also confirmed that my HP curve was really screwy because of the way my fuel cut has been bypassed - my second turbo isn't being properly prespooled and that's BAD. $75 part fixes this BTW. I intend to fix that ASAP with a complete aftermarket ECU but I'm also looking to go single. Cost for that with a T66 will be $3K or so. NOT cheap but it'll get me into the 500RWHP arena with a USABLE HP curve (I hope). That's sans fuel setup though and I'll want an aftermarket intercooler too. Still researching injectors (sigh). What do you reckon it'll cost to turbo an LT1 or other V8? The T66 I'm looking at is $900 alone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 14, 2002 Share Posted January 14, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Azel (Sopdadope reincarnated): Knowing that there forums out there that are more concerned with posting kill stories than welcoming others makes me feel really good about HybridZ. But we still love hearing Kill stories... Right? I know I sure do, just wish I had more of 'em myself! Some Day! The info on the supra motors is very interesting too by the way! It would definitely make for an unusuall swap, But I've got the LT-1 and I'm stickin with it! Keep killin' em, just keep workin' on em too! Kris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.