Guest polarity Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Hey Scottie if you dont mind me asking, what was the cost difference in setting up your car for the GN motor as opposed to doing a sbc install. Maybe your putting more money and time into yours I'm not sure, but I see you getting great power and all from your car, plus you have the added bonus of turbo (i love the feeling when it spools). So can you give me some rundown on your setup I would love to know more about it and the costs involved with a gn setup Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 240Zduz10s Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 id like to know as well..... scottie ....wanna swap a gn motor into my 280? i have money just no knowledge of the wiring and such.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 This really is going to be difficult to give a straight answer because a lot of it depends on your ability and luck to find the right parts and at a reasonable price and your design, fabrication and mechanical skills. People see my car and like the results and want to duplicate it but they have to understand that NOTHING on my car (related to the swap, drivetrain and suspension) was done with a kit. That is not to say it cannot be duplicated, but if you do not have the skill, it is going to cost you a ton of $$$ simply because of what fabricators and machinists charge to do one-offs. I would be doing you all an injustice if I led you believe it would cost you $x because that is what it cost me. Another thing, a lot of what I did could be considered overkill and was done as an engineering challenge. With that said, here are the basic components and steps needed with cost defined where applicable: Drivetrain - If you could find a complete engine with turbo, tranny, ECM and harness for $2700-3000, do not even blink. Compared to the typical low-buck SBCs one can find in the JY or from a wreck, that is a high entry fee. However, my bone-stock setup went 12.40s first time out with an easy launch and no idea how to tune this beast. It is going to take a hi-po crate SBC to match that and after you finish dressing the crate engine and getting a tranny you will have spent more than $3K. For another $100 you can pull 50+hp out of the stock GN engine. Install Pt I - There is no kit so you must fabricate your own engine and tranny mounting. There is no way for me to quantify this. If you are a skilled fabricator and understand the concepts of engine swapping regarding driveline angles, etc, it is not a difficult task because the engine is physically small relative to the roomy engine bay. However, if you have to get this all done by a shop........ Install Pt II - Once the engine/tranny is in the chassis, you need to take measurements and have a custom driveshaft made. I recommend a 3" diameter steel with the big Spicer joints and that will cost about $250. You will need a shifter and the easiest route is an aftermarket, keeping in mind that this is a 4-spd tranny (5-spd actually, if you count the LU). Anywhere from $75 used to $250 for a fancy ratchet-type. You will need a VSS and you can get that from JTR for about $60. You will need this as the ECM relies on speed data and you need to know that you just went over 100mph w/o knowing it . You will need a custom alternator bracket or you can use the factory setup but it is bulky and probably will not clear the hood. I made my own. The engine's torque will rip stock motor mounts to shreds so I strongly recommend a polyurethane mount for the drivers side, $80 and worth every penny. Cooling - Get the Griffin radiator and a good electric fan that moves a lot of air and is shrouded. Do not waste time and money with the generic 16" fans. The radiator is about $190 + mounting + the fan setup. Since the radiator is generic you will have to find hoses that will fit and you will end up with some generic flex hose at the bottom and cutting up 2 hoses to make a top one. Exhaust - If you are on a budget, scrounge the Buick boards and get a ported stock wastegate elbow for about $50+ and have a shop fabricate a 3" DP from that and a 3" exhaust with a free-flowing muffler. If you can fabricate and weld you can save a ton here and make it all yourself. I will not attempt to quantify this either because of the variables such as SS or not, TIG or MIG welds, mandrel vs press-bent, cheap cherry-bomb vs Dynomax Ultraflow.... You get the idea. Intercooling - No Starion, Saab, Volvo, et al here!! Minimum would be the BIG NPR or use a stock GN and make it fit and work as a FMIC. DO NOT GO CHEAP HERE! Mandrel-bent pipes and good clamps is also a must. Remeber I said you can get 50hp for a couple of $$$? The way you do that is to get the right chip made, put in some race gas and turn up the boost. The GN runs 12psi boost stock. You will be moving a lot of air. Electrical - With luck you got a complete GN harness and ECM. This harness is independent but can be (IS) a daunting task if you break out into sweats doing electrical work. The harness must be opened up as you will end up eliminating almost half of it. A good wiring diagram and patience and you can do it or pay someone. Run a couple of new 10-gauge wires from the battery to support the electrical sources for this harness. DO NOT use any of the original Datsun wiring except to trigger relays where necessary. Suspension/Brakes - This had better be in your budget right up front. R200 is a must with a minimum of solid u-joints in the halfshafts if you are running street tires. If you step up to DRs or slicks, the CV conversion is a must. The final-drive ratio is going to be difficult part. With just a couple more psi of boost and careful tuning, the car will do 120 in the 1/4-mile. This engine has so much torque that I am not sure what the rear would do if it was not a LSD. Problem is that the LSDs are 3.70 forcing you to shift to OD which is .67 (big drop in RPMs) and not designed to handle that type of driving. If you do not frequent the drag strip often, this is not a problem but, trust me, you will. Best bet is a LSD with the rare 3.36 gears. Now you understand why I went to the Vette IRS. If you are starting from scratch you have to get a LSD, find the rare 3.36 R200, have a driveline shop do the swap with new bearings, find CVs and buy the CV swap kit. The rear brakes must be upgraded to disc or run the best shoes available. The fronts should be upgraded to a 12" setup from Ross or SCCA. Overkill? Look at it this way. With minor upgrades the car will be capable of hi-11s and close to 120mph. Another way to look at it is 0-100mph in probably about 9secs! If you like to push your car on the street, you MUST respect that capability and have stopping power that can match the acceleration. Nickels & Dimes - The little things that you never think about when planning a swap. Whatever your budget, add 20% for this category. I am sure I forgot a lot. This is no different from any other swap, you just are not working from a kit so if I left anything out, others can fill you in. HTH and I do not want to write this again so I hope in the future folks utilize the Search feature. And, before anyone asks, I am not in the fabricating business so do not look to me for parts . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest polarity Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Thanks for all the info. I wasnt sure of anything about your swap except for the fact that you had amazing numbers. Is your car street legal and street drivable (as they can be two different things). I have seen a few GN motors down here, for a bit less than you were saying if i'm not mistaken. Are there any particular years I need to look for? Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 There are 3 types of GN motors and the prices will vary wildly. Very early motors were carbureted. 84-85 were EFI but were not intercooled. These are referred to as "Hot Airs". The desirable ones and the one I recommend is the 86-87 EFI and intercooled. My car is very streetable and MOF I drove to the Reynolds meet last weekend and registered 26+mpg cruising at 70-75 up the freeway. It might be putting out almost 500hp but when it is not on boost it is just a low-compression 6-cyl with a stock cam, 3.07 gears and OD. If "granny" did not put her foot into it she would not be the wiser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest polarity Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Any ideas what all cars these GN motors came out of.. the 86-87 EFI ones. Which buick models? Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 86-87 Buick Turbo Regal, Grand National (GN) and Grand National X (GNX), 89 Pontiac Turbo Trans Am (TTA). You can forget about finding one in the JYs. The TTA and GNX are both collector cars so the best bet is searching the classifieds in the Turbo Buick boards: http://www.turbobuicks.com and http://www.turbobuick.com If you are interested in buying one NOW, Misred had one for sale complete with harness, ECM and datalogger. Contact him at mike@turbobuicks.com When one oif these jewels come up for sale you have to be prepared to buy immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Come on down, listen to it run and bring a pickup truck! This is a load of parts! This motor went 12.x @ 118MPH in my RX-7.... it's a healthy one.... 1987 Buick Grand National Drivetrain For Sale Engine – Transmission – ECM – Wiring Harness – Direct Scan – MAXEFFORT Chip – Ported MAF - LAPTOP Buick 3.8 Block. Correct Turbo Block Casting Number Buick 2004r Transmission – Stock. Probably Needs rebuild. Correct High HP BRF internals. Buick Wiring Harness – Cleaned up and labeled for easy installation Buick ECM with MAXEffort Digital Programmable Fuel Management System Everything is included on the motor except for the following: Power Steering Pump Belt Tensioner Coil Pack Bracket (flat piece) Throttle Body and dog house A/C Compressor Just to hit on some of the items that are definitely included in the sale: Headers and Crossover pipe Heads Valve Covers Main A/C accessory bracket Front Cover, Oil Pan Stock Turbo (no slop, recent rebuild) Stock Injectors Brand New 160* thermostat Intake (blasted and painted factory aluminum) Fuel Rail Starter FlexPlate Crank pulley New water pump All EGR pieces Coil Pack & Module Turbo Return Line Most sensors Adjustable Wastegate on Turbo Bosch 237 (45psi) Fuel Pressure Regulator Syclone Intake Fuel Pump (If you need it) Buick Downpipe (if you need it) Transmission is complete including dipstick tube, dipstick, TV cable ect. Unknown condition (shift kit, race rebuild unknown). Stock converter is included. 2300-2400rpm stall. Wiring harness is out of an ’87 GN donor car. It will be cleaned up and labeled. I will fix any weather pack connections that are damaged or missing. Electronics: MaxEffort Digital Programmable Fuel Management System with Direct Scan and Laptop. Also included is a ported MAF for use with the MaxEffort Chip. Laptop is Digital HiNote P166. Perfect size laptop for the car and displays Direct Scan playback very fast. Performance 12.1 @ 118MPH STOCK TURBO (included) in my ’87 RX-7. Strong running motor with lots of life left. Just installed brand new steel timing set. Engine is currently in my ’87 Buick Grand National and runs great. Oil pressure is 30psi at hot idle with 10/40 oil. Zero smoke on start up or WOT. This means the turbo and intake seals are in great shape. I really don’t want to split up the parts because this setup will be perfect for someone doing an engine swap. The parts that are missing are not that difficult to come about. Some of the items a hybrid swapper probably will not even need (PS Pump, A/C, tensioner. I also have many other parts that I can make a deal on with the sale of this drive train. Things like intercoolers, GN radiator, GN driveshaft, some 4.1 blocks, Cams, Mini-Starters, Buick Shifter, lots of chips ect. $2950 For Buick Turbo Drivetrain with Race Electronics. *Package Deal* Contact Mike Savino – mike@TurboBuicks.com Located in Orlando Florida Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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