NA vs. Turbo

[jeromio]

Wondering what the thoughts are on this. The way I see it there are several different issues.

 

For a baseline, I'm not really referring to a "scratch built" powertrain. What I mean by that is, starting from a stock, readily available drivetrain from a salvage yard. Put another way: cheap.

 

That, I believe, rules out both ends of the spectrum: no huge dispacement, high compression strokers and no ceramic turbo'd, forged pistoned aftermarket electronics motors.

 

The way I see it, there are turbo motors that can be installed, used "as is for awhile and then perhaps, down the road, one can play with the ECU or sensors, upgrade the turbo and or intercooler, and achieve a pretty big power to dollar ratio while maintaing day to day drivability.

 

The cons on that would be added weight (piping, intercoolers, etc.) and definately complexity. Also, I'm pretty naive about the subtleties and dangers of tuning turbo'd motors. I can definaly learn, it's just that I seem to have gleaned most of my automotive knowledge the Hard Way.

 

The pros of the NA driveline would be simplicity, drivability and probably reliability.

 

But I can't help thinking that, for the most part, whatever power that motor makes, I'll be stuck with. As in, I could increase power by moving to more aggresive, higher compression heads, but then there's the $'s and extreme labor for that upgrade. Am I wrong?

 

Basically, for my particular situation, I'm poor. I'm not looking for extreme power right away - I'm used to the L28, so whether I go turbo 6 or V8, it's gonna be a huge boost in power straight away. But, like many of you, I can imagine a time, probably a mere 12 months later, when I'll be ready for more power (and with all my chassis mods and by then a full cage, why not?). With a turbo (such as an L28T or, my preference, a 7M-GTE), I can foresee buying an ECU mod, larger injectors, a bigger I/C and/or a larger turbo. For the V8 (I'm leaning towards a Mustang 5.0 due to high availability and low cost: around $1300 for engine/5sp vs. around $2800 for the equvialent SBC/6sp!), the uprades are pretty extreme and tend to involve rebuilding the whole engine.

 

I welcome any and all discussion on this and I think I am, at this point, open to most any idea. I'm still in the "save up the dollars" phase, but I'm getting close enough to a decision (barring the inevitable unforeseen, savings sucking event that I should, in fact, just count on ) that I've been cruising every possible classifieds/auction site 6-7 times a day....

 

Thanks.

 

[ August 06, 2001: Message edited by: jeromio ]

[DavyZ]

Judging from your site, you seem very adept to handling the Ford swap with competence and confidence even though there is not manual for it. I think you are right when you talk about the costs differences between the Ford vs Chevy. I could be wrong, but I think the Ford T5 seems to live longer than the Chevy T5 in their relative cars, but I could be wrong. That said, I think the Ford would be a good way to go. Isn't this car your daily driver?!? It'll be up on blocks for while for sure...

 

Good luck, Jeromio!

 

Davy

[Guest Anonymous]

Both of those engines will have a caviate that you have to include in your swap budget. Fuel systems on both of them would need to be altered if its a fuel injected engine. That would probably involve having larger lines welded into your stock tank, or adding a rear sump to the stock tank, or a fuel cell. You can also use a surge tank in the engine bay with two pumps, one low pressure to feed the surge tank, another high pressure to feed the injectors from the surge tank. This works well, but has the added plumbing complications and pump. Outside of that, they pretty much would go in there like the JTR manual suggest. Hood clearance may be a problem on the Ford depending on where the engine is positioned (with mounts you'll have to build), from what I've seen lately of the TPI installs, the chevy unit seems lower and fits nicely.

Either one would make a great swap, but do price it all out and make sure you have enough in your 'misc' fund for all the little bug-a-boo's that seem to pop up as your doing the swap. Good luck with whatever you decide!

 

Regards,

 

Lone

[BLKMGK]

I've driven (and own) both N/A and boosted cars. That has included a turbo 5.0 and nwo a supercharged 351W (barely driven though) along with a turbo rotary. Honestly, no feeling in th eworld beats a motor as it hits boost. The rush of power be it supercharged or turbo is pretty darned incredible. If you're looking for a drivetrain that will provide good power "stock" and can handle somefabrication look to Scottie's Buick swap. Decent MPG for a dialy driver but it ROX on boost.

 

If the Ford swap is easier and more your style realize that there are used Vortechs, ATI, and even gear driven Paxton blowers all over the place. It's a little louder but it can be bolted onto a pretty stock 5.0 and bring th epower up considerably. You're NOT stuck with stock power in a 5.0 and used parts like heads and intake darn near fall out of trees if you look outside. Obviously a blower or heads is going to cost a bit of cash but it will wake up a 5.0 pretty easily - especially in such a light car. I'm wondering how long MikeSCCA will hold out before breaking down and getting a blower Packaging a blower in the Z might take some work but if you've managed to make the motor mounts then the blower shouldn't be much harder.

 

IMO either path would be fine and there's always NOS too. Go with what you're comfortable doing but don't think that a V8 will dead-end you at all.

[jeromio]

It's exactly that "misc" money that limits my outlay for the engine/trans to under $1200. This limit completely rules out Chevy and the Buick (I also want a manual which eliminates the Buick anyway).

 

The L28Turbo is crazy cheap - I can get everything for $600. But, that's an old, high miles motor that will likely need a rebuild at some point. I've checked this out and parts (pistons, rings, etc) are way expensive. Also, no diss to those who have this powerplant, but I want cross-flow chambers and something that is just different from what I have now (besides, I've already swapped in an L28 once - car had an L24 when I got it).

 

I can get a complete Mark3 Supra Turbo - the whole car, for probably $1500 - $2000 (These cars have terrible resale value). If I can get into an insurance auction, I bet I could get a wrecked one for less than half that. That would guarantee me everything I need for the swap - including the crossmember which I could hack up to make some mounts. I know there's alot to beware of with these motors - primarily the HG. But there's also alot of parts and support out there for it.

 

The 5.0 can be had pretty cheap too. And obviously there are entire magazines devoted to it - plenty of support. I'm pretty impressed with SCCA's photos and encouraged that he was able to knock it out so quickly.

 

Both motors seem to make about the same power in stock form. There are some BPUs for the 7M that can bring it up 50-75hp pretty easily though. I have seen used blowers for sale, but all for $1500 plus. That would put my next power upgrade waaaay into the future. Granted, the next stage of the turbo motor would be into the multi-thou area as well.

 

It just seems like the term "BPU" (basic power upgrade) only really applies to a turbo motor: more fuel + more boost = more power. With the NA, the non-invasive mods (intake, exhaust, ECU) don't really boost power all that much relative to their co$t. Any links to 5.0 sites besides stangnet.com? Is my estimate of the 5.0 stock hp of around 225 accurate?

 

As to the fuel system, I've considered going to a fuel cell. But initially I'll just upgrade to a better fuel pump, mounted next to the tank. The car already has the return lines, etc.

[BLKMGK]

Hrm, a shame the FOX headers don't fit th eZ chassis - I know where there's a pair of T25 turbos on cast manifolds in that form factor. Need some work and some porting wouldn't hurt either but they ran well when last used. I have this fantasy of using them again but at the rate I'm going it'll be forever...

 

Why not a Ford motor and try some of the junkyard Turbo install ricks that have been done with flipped headers? Hegith would be my worry but perhaps Mike could sort of peek under his hood with a header in one hand to give us an eye ball idea on this. somewhere here the site with the junkyard turbo project has been linked. I used 2.3L turbos - two - and ran pretty well as I recall.