cribbj
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Posts posted by cribbj
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I know the membership on HybridZ is all about doing interesting modifications to your Z's, and although I'm a Supra guy, nearly every time I visit here, I gain something useful.
So, I wanted to share a project I've just started, which may also be interesting for your Z motors. It's supercharging the Supra's inline six, and eventually twincharging it, if the supercharger concept works out.
We all know an inline six configuration isn't the cleanest model to start with for a Roots type install, as the supercharger needs to be very long to hit six intake ports, else a pretty crazy intake manifold must be built, which then makes it nearly impossible to fit the whole thing in a car. A centrifugal supercharger could be used, but they have power curves similar to turbo's, and both the Supra and Z engine already have well developed turbo solutions.
So instead of using a single Roots supercharger, I decided to try to fit 3 little ones (the Aisin AMR500) and mount them as close to the head as possible.
Here's a link to the project, which I'm calling "The 2JZ-GZTE Project": http://www.lextreme.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12373
(apologies in advance if I've violated any site rules by linking to another website, however I don't see the Lextreme site as competition to this one - rather they seem to complement each other.)
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Do you know if the setup on the "Sport Speciale" came from Henry? I'm referring to the car pictured below. It uses a single fuel rail down the middle like Henry's. I have also seen one using TWM throttle bodies with a fuel rail along each side and someone was trying to convince me to use 6 of the TWM's that look like the old 2 barrel webers, but that will require a lot of fabrication to get the intakes right
Chelle
http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2008/02/ferrari-aston-martin-maserati-inspired.html
Chelle, that certainly looks like one of Henry's, but I've seen nearly the same setup on one of the BMW tuner websites (albeit @ 2x the price!)
Personally, I think exposed fuel rails down the outboard sides detract from the looks of ITB's. I wouldn't do it, especially on a car that "looks" the period like yours.
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John C,
Hey, i keep looking at the drysump you talked to me about and thinking I want in on that. It would allow me to drop the pump lower if they do it like the pictures as long as it's on the same side of the engine as the inlet for the oil into the engine (other side of the engine would be right in the way of the steering). You said price would be 10k for three. if it comes down to it I could pay for two and just save one for a future project.
Dropping the pump would give me more space to maybe put the alternator on that side too, closer to how it was originally
Let me know what you think.
Chelle
Chelle, Henry is engineering his own setup now, based on using one of those pumps. Pricing should be a little better too. Drop him an email if you're interested. Did you ever put on a set of ITB's?
John
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My motor is slated to go into a mid engine project (not a Lambo), but it's taking awhile to get built. It's an M70 which has an 850CSi crank & rods for more stroke, plus it's been overbored and sleeved to get a total of 6.0 litres instead of 5.0. The builder is currently trying to engineer an integrated oil pump / dry sump setup for it. Hopefully that'll be the last hurdle with the short block, and he can then turn his attention to the heads and the ITB induction setup. I'm probably at least a year away from beginning to build the car.
What are you putting your motor into?
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At least I wasn't the first to resurrect this old thread... I have e-mailed and PM'd chelle and another guy here that claims to have the M70 working with a typical RWD manual transmission. If anyone can give me some tips on how to mate up the M70 to a TKO or similar gearbox, I would be very appreciative.
Cheers, John
Many of us who are using this engine are mating it to a transaxle box like the Porsche G50. Our projects are midengine based, like the Lambos, etc.
If this is of interest, you can contact Roger Brown @ CMS (California Motorsports) who are now offering a complete adaptor and flywheel setup to bolt this motor up to a Porsche G50. PM me if you want Roger's email addy.
HTH,
John
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I'm 58 years old, and have gotten up and left a grand total of 4 films because they were so poor; this was one of them.
My wife suggested going to it because it received a number of high ratings from "critics", including People magazine. That in itself should have been enough of a warning not to go.
Cinemark cheerfully refunded my admission, and said I wasn't the first adult who thought it was total cr*p. They said it apparently appeals more to younger viewers' sense of humor.
To each his own; this definitely wasn't my cup of tea.
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I don't know how to evaluate the potential performance of a coil.
Richard, that seems to be the problem with most ignition coils. There's no way to evaluate them objectively.
You won't find these coils in a Summit or Jegs catalog; nor are they encased in racy looking red or yellow plastic cases, but they get the job done. Have a search on http://www.efi101.com/forum/ using Mototron or IGN1-A and see what comes up.
Alternately, contact your MoTeC rep, I'm sure he knows these coils as they're often the solution of last resort.
BTW, these are not small coils; they measure around 115 x 90 x 50 mm roughly, and weigh around 450 grams, so packaging can be an issue.
Javad Shadzi over at 034Motorsports has developed a unique way to mount these on the DOHC Audi motors:
Best,
John
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PMFJI, but 260DET have you checked out the Mototron (IGN-1A) smart coils?
Specs & prices here here: http://www.bmepfuelandtuning.com/html/bmep_ignition.html
No relation to me - just one of the places to find them on the web. Pantera EFI is another.
HTH,
John
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You guys are probably already familiar with these, but they're popular in the replica market. 8 spoke Minilite knockoffs:
Available from TeamIII: http://www.team3wheels.com/ac/LT-price.html
They also do a really nice Halibrand knockoff.
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Prestige Motorsports in north Houston will trim (not roll) your fenders for between $125 & $175. Have heard good things about them, but haven't personally used them (yet).
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Woohoo Chelle! 485 RWHP???? That's at least 75 RWHP higher than I would have guessed with stock displacement, and an unopened bottom end. You've put in the Schrick's, drysumped it, done some manifold tweaking and added the TEC3r, right? What about head mods, etc.?
Was that with NOS, race fuel, or anything other enhancers, or just premium pump gas? At what RPM did you see your peak torque and peak HP? This was on a DynoJet?
Congratulations & please post the dyno curves!!!
John
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I hear ya Chelle and yes, it's Henry's setup I'm referring to. I think the cam prices are pretty dear, but the rest of it isn't that bad, considering those are all "installed" prices.
For my Supra motor, I have about the same amount of money in the Manley SS valves, springs and titanium retainers, which I bought at builder level prices.
I don't know that we'll ever get good cam prices because of the low volume. Maybe with a group buy......??
John
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Another update on cams & valves; I've found (perhaps) a better set of cams and roller valve train from a wellknown M70 builder in NC. Specs are:
Duration: 245 intake / 255 exhaust
Valve lift: 11.5mm
Lobe centers: 110 degrees
The cams are custom built; the roller components and the valves themselves are out of the M73 engine and the springs and titanium retainers are high performance aftermarket items.
Since the cams are built for each application, duration and lift can probably be whatever the user wants, as can the peak power point.
These cams and this valve train are designed to make power through 7500 rpm without float. Pricing for the whole thing will probably be between $6200-$6500, with the cams representing about half of that.
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I found the cam specs for the M70 motor, so here's a little comparison between stock and the Schrick cams:
Stock: 246 degrees 10.5mm valve lift
Schrick: 264 degrees 11.0mm valve lift
Probably not enough difference with the Schricks to give it a lopey idle, but it should breathe a lot better with the extra duration and lift.
John
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I don't know where that fellow got his figures, but in an "official" BMW TIS document (entitled SBT 5.0l V12 Engine M-70) it states "the new V12 maintains a power-to-weight ratio of 1.77 lbs/hp" while giving its output figure as 295 HP. This works out to 522 lbs, which agrees well with other figures I've seen for this motor.
John
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Chelle, with the money you're spending changing 12 plugs at a time every few hours, you could probably pay for a wideband pretty quickly
I know I'd be lost trying to tune without mine; it's an FJO system and one of the better ones, but it's only good down to 10:1. For the V12 project I'm definitely going to get a setup that reads lower, although they're hard to find, and most of the wideband manufacturers don't publish this shortcoming. IIRC, NTK or NGK make one now that goes down to 8:1 or 8.5:1.
Have you looked at Schrick's cams? They're 264 degrees with 11mm of valve lift. Not exactly wild, but probably a fair bit more than stock. Unfortunately, I don't have the stock cam specs, do you?
I don't think regrinding the existing cams would be a good idea for this motor, given that the cam lubrication area is one of its weaknesses.
It would be interesting to find out if Jay has a source for hotter cams.
John
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Yep, that's the plan. Your engine bay looks great; keep us posted on how the mapping exercise turns out. Do you have access to a dyno for tuning, or are you just tuning for driveability? I'm with Dot, I don't think mapping is ever finished. The laptop just becomes a constant companion/nuisance in the car
I will say that with the assistance of another very knowledgeable AEM/Supra owner, I'm finally very happy with the AEM setup in my Supra. It has as close to stock driveability as I want, starts & idles well, and the AFR's are very stable, but this is after 3 years of fooling with it. I'm sure the GT40 project won't be any different.
Now I just need to get the PWM controller for my electric fan working......
John
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I'm trying to post a couple pics of the M70 motor mated to the G50 transaxle, but am on a dodgy Internet connection. Chelle, I'll email them to you, and perhaps you can post them up.
John
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I'll weigh that dummy motor when I get back next week. I'm really curious to see if one person can (wo)manhandle it
John
The dummy motor without any innards weighs just a tad over 150 lbs, so it can be handled, but not very easily. It consists of block, heads, valve covers, front & rear timing covers, pans, and that's about it. Just enough to have a fairly accurate silhouette of the real motor.
No crank, pistons/rods, cams, valves, pulleys, flexplate, etc.
John
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Chelle, those EFI Technologies boxes are the ultimate; I've been drooling over them for years, but I'll bet there wouldn't be much change left from $10K, once you get the box, harness, and all the ancillary stuff. I'm thinking (hoping) the MoTeC can be done for around half that.
At some point we have to ask ourselves, is a $10K EMS "REALLY" that much better than Webers? I have an AEM in my car now, and I'm forever fooling with it, just as I would be with Webers. Maybe it's just because it's there and we can.....
Here's MoTeC's page for their M800: http://www.motec.com/products/ecu/m800.htm
And a link to download the manual: http://www.motec.com/support/manuals/M400%20M600%20M800%20M880%20Manual%20A5.pdf
And finally, the page for the Expander modules:
http://www.motec.com/products/expansion/componen.htm
From what I understand, the base M800 comes with 8 injector and 6 coil outputs. Four of the 6 coil outputs get reconfigured as injectors, then the remaining 2 coil outputs drive two of these expanders, which then can drive up to 16 coils in full sequential mode. Looks good on paper doesn't it?
John
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Chelle, if you're running EM's TEC3 6/12, which has 6 ignition outputs and 6 injector outputs, then I believe you're probably running a waste spark and semi-sequential injection setup. Where the BMW ECU had 4 outputs for 12 injectors, the EM has 6, so you're firing 2 injectors at a time, instead of 3, like you did with the OEM setup. And you're firing 2 coils at a time as well.
AFAIK, the MoTeC M800 is the only EMS (commonly available) that can individually fire/control 12 injectors and 12 coils, from a single system, but it still requires 2 ignition expander modules to do it.
I'll weigh that dummy motor when I get back next week. I'm really curious to see if one person can (wo)manhandle it
John
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Mason, it's good to see a young Texan interested in exotic cars. Many people have the mistaken impression we Texans are only interested in big pick'em-up trucks. Keep that interest alive and good luck for the rest of your time in high school & after. My youngest son will be graduating next year, but I can't get him interested in cars - he's only interested in the opposite sex at the moment!
Chelle, thanks for the info. It would be very interesting to see a dyno of your car as & when. Are you aware of anyone else with one of these V12's who's dynoed recently? I haven't seen any of Jay's results since that 2004 SCCC when he laid down 409 RWHP with a bum set of cams.
Did you keep the stock injectors for your motor, or did you bump the size up a little? I'd also be very interested to hear more about your EMS and how the ignition & injection were setup. With the Electromotive, you must be running waste spark and batch injection, unless you happened to use twin Electromotives? Happy with the idle, etc.?
My 2nd "dummy" motor is just now ready (it has an extra hole in the block where the #12 rod made an unscheduled exit). Welding up the block was going to cost more than the entire motor did, so all the heavy internals (crank, rods, pistons, cams, valves) were pulled out, and the motor reassembled with bare heads, cam covers, oil pans, etc. to get a lightweight, but still fairly accurate silhouette of the motor for test fitting. I'll be bringing a motor/tranny adaptor back with me from England next week and hopefully will soon be able to see what this V12 looks like coupled to a Porsche G50 transaxle.
John
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Chelle, if you prefer the classic rounded lines of the 60's, have a look at www.sportscarfactory.com They do a very nice XJ13 replica, which is already setup for a V12. It's a beautiful car, but a bit too batmobile for me.
Also, Fran Hall of Race Car Replicas does a gorgeous Ferrari P4 replica: http://race-car-replicas.com/RCRP4.html and you ought to be able to charm him into to stretching it a bit for a V12. After all, didn't Enzo himself once say, "It's not a REAL Ferrari unless it has a V12!" Fran's right there in Detroit, too, so not that far away from you.
On your current build, other than the EMS and dry sump setup, did you stay out of the engine internals? No rebuilding, linering, head porting, cams or other? If so, do you think you "found" any power in this motor with your Electromotive setup?
This engine seems to have so much potential, it's a pity BMW gave it such mild cams and low compression. But then, they probably didn't plan on people hotrodding it
I'm hoping with the additional displacement, and the other goodies, we'll see between 375 and 400 BHP, which is up around 100 BHP from the stock figure, and is still only 70 BHP per litre. That's about the same output as more contemporary DOHC motors are making, so I think/hope it's achievable.
Lastly, I don't want to hijack this thread, so if anyone objects, please sing out, and I'll take this private.
Thx,
John
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Chelle what a terrific job you've done. My V12 is at the engine builder's shop, and I've decided to put it into a scratch built, tubeframe GT40 replica project. Not exactly being faithful to the blue oval diehards, but it should be a real interesting project.
Last time we corresponded, you were thinking about using either the Electromotive or the SDS EMS? Which did you settle on, and how did it work out for you?
I'm still planning on dual EMS's and an ITB induction system. Ought to look and sound pretty sweet with 12 intake trumpets. I'm also using the later M73 "stroker" crank, along with a linered early block, and am hoping to get around 5.7-6.0 litres displacement as Jay has done.
Really like those billet distributor drive covers you made - did you happen to make an extra set (hint, hint)?
John
Supercharged Supra Engine (2JZ-GZTE)
in Turbo / Supercharger
Posted
Thanks for the interest guys. Yes the belt drives are going to be a challenge, and frankly everything about the project will be a challenge, but that's why it'll be interesting.
I can appreciate that not everyone is a 2JZ fan - it's yesterday's superstar, and it's had its day in the spotlight. It's still a very formidable motor, however, even if it is showing its age a bit. Although I've owned Supras continuously since 1989, I had drifted away from modified 2JZ's around 4-5 years ago and have been playing with supercharged Lexus V8's, but I always wanted to try to do something to sort out the 2JZ's lack of low end grunt. Maybe this will be the answer.