JoshB 240Z
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Posts posted by JoshB 240Z
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This was at the Monterey Historics this past Sunday, correct?
Josh
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3/8" doesn't sound like enough throw to disengage the clutch. My setup, a Wilwood pulling slave and Tilton 1" master, throws about 1/2". This works well but I have been told by Wilwood that this may be too much master cylinder for the slave. The Tilton master cylinders are very easy to install into a Datsun with only one minor modification...the clevis needs to be fitted to the Datsun pedal. Installing the Tilton master seemed like a bolt in after getting the Ford engine in the car. These master cylinders are about $60 from any race shop.
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Capt. Zorro is right about the LSC engines....pretty much the same without the abuse. Sometimes you can also get them cheaper since they are "just" a Lincoln engine vs. a Mustang engine. The Fox body oil pan, which also comes on the LSC engine, is probably easier to work with since it has a small sump in front and a large rear sump. The small front sump is positioned over the front crossmember so a larger one will interfere. If you use Alsil's mount you will have use the Fox body pan as the crossmember runs between the front and rear sumps.
I went with the EFI since I only wanted to do the swap once. The Ford EFI is very simple and there is no reason to go to the aftermarket for a harness unless you want a brand new harness with only the essential wires. I chose to use the factor harness from a Mustang and found the wiring to be one of the easiest parts of the swap. You can have the engine running quickly with anywhere from six to thirteen wires hooked up. Very simple. The one area that you will need to make a decision on carb or EFI early is the fuel system. The carb'd setup requires only one fuel line and a low pressure pump while the EFI setup requires a feed and return line and an EFI fuel pump for higher flow and pressure. It's easiest to install all of this before installing the engine.
As for stats...first and only time I have taken it to the drag strip I ran four runs right at 13.1X with trap speeds of 105 and 106mph. This was done starting in second gear at idle and pampering the car on the shifts. I didn't want to break it. The only modifications were a cam and headers.
Good luck on the swap.
Josh
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The ZX shift lever is pretty much straight with the tan plastic inserts like jmortensen stated. If you want a "short handled" shifter the ZX lever is best but requires some bending to work well. The reason I think it's the best to start out with is because it is shorter than the earlier Z's lever to start with and once bent to fit the earlier car it stands up even less. Some people prefer this to the longer lever of the earlier cars and it reduces some of the throw and gives the shifter a more modern look.
As for the aftermarket kits, some of them have two tabs that you bolt to the existing holes where the pivot pin (not the proper term I'm sure) goes through the transmission in order to raise the pivot point up quite a bit. The area on the lever between the pivot point and ball is extended.
I believe the tan plastic inserts and spring in the ZX are there to allow some give in the shift lever as the lever is moved through the arc when shifting gears. I'm not sure if this was ever a problem but it's my guess.
Josh
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Actually, I ordered after you posted because I thought that if I ordered now I would have the parts by the time I actually needed them. I wasn't expecting the parts to arrive so soon. Now I have a project for the weekend.
You can blame me if you want or you can buy the parts from me. How much of a mark-up is fair, 5x, 6x? How bad do you need to stop?
Did you place an order for the parts yet? Did you go with a different supplier?
I mocked up the setup last night on the floor of my living room and was impressed. Size does matter.
Josh
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I ordered my brake parts from Pitstopusa.com on July 15th and received all but one rotor on July 20th. The second rotor arrived the next day. Just for comparison, I purchased the Wilwood Forged Superlite calipers, Hawk Black pads and the 32 vane rotors.
Josh
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Dan,
It's good to see another Ford powered Z on road. Like Blueovalz, I am curious what method you used to mount the engine.
Oh yeah, that was my EFI Ford 240Z at the MSA show. Hopefully you will have yours at next year's show.
Josh
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Coby,
I believe the 1987 Lincoln Continental has the standard speed density 5.0L Ford engine. These engines are a non-performance based engine used in pretty much everything other than the Lincoln LSC and Mustang. These engines are down on power compared to the 5L High Output engines found in the LSC and Mustang but are good building blocks if you are going to replace everything on the engine anyway. The main differences between the standard and HO engines are the heads, pistons and cam. The heads on the HO engines flow a little better, the cam is a little more aggressive and has the 351W firing order vs. the standard 302 firing order and the piston are cast vs. forged in the HO.
If you are looking for a basic engine to complete the swap this engine will work but you will be giving up some power to a stock HO engine. As far as modifications go with speed density, it's difficult to say. Most cam swaps in an SD car will cause driveability problems but some people have been able to get away with it. The reason the MAF EFI is popular is that the EFI is able to adjust for increased airflow demands based on the measurements supplied by the MAF.
I hope this helps some.
Josh
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The T-45 has a bellhousing that is an integral part of the transmission case, much like the later Datsun 5-speeds. This is a problem because the bellhousing to block bolt pattern is also different so just bolting it to 5L isn't an inexpensive alternative. Unfortunately you can't just swap bellhousings in this case.
I'm sure a solution can be built but I wonder if the cost would be more than a built up T5?
Josh
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Gene,
I wasn't aware of the main cap size difference between the 302 and 351W engines but I did look at some parts catalogs and saw that oil pans for each engine have different part numbers. I should have looked before posting. I wonder how much room you have to play with inside the pan?
I don't have any pictures of my hood at this time. It really isn't much to look at. I used a body hammer to pound a bubble (2" high and 6" round) into a trashed hood that I had in my garage.
I believe those who were successful at installing the EFI engine without touching the hood made their own mounts. There was a discussion back nine months ago or so regarding this issue.
http://hybridz.org/nuke/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=24881&highlight=
I recently looked at a 5L EFI install that fit with the hood closed and this person also made his own mounts. He was able to drop the engine down quite a bit but he ended up notching the crossmember where the oil pan interfered.
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Gene,
I believe Don is correct, the 302 and 351W are the same size other than on deck height. You should be able to swap you current oil pan with a standard Fox body 5L oil pan and it should clear...if the pan is truly different on your current engine. From looking at your pictures it appears that your oil pan is slightly different. On the Mustang oil pans the front edge of the oil pan is slanted back towards the center of the engine and has a drain plug on this angled portion. Here is a picture of the front sump on my install.
I used Alsil's engine mount for my 5L EFI install and I had to put a blister in the hood to clear the throttle body on the stock intake manifold. Alsil's mount sits the engine up a little higher than some other installs. With this mount the oil pan is NOT the lowest part on the car. I felt the blister was a small trade off to keep the oil pan from being the first part of the car to meet a speed bump.
Don-Are you using Al's mount or one that you fabbed?
Josh
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I see this in the junkyard all of the time. It makes you wonder how many more are still "sharing" the road.
Scary.
Josh
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It's held by Motorsport Auto in Orange, CA (down the street from Disneyland). They have a page on their website with all of the details.
The costs for each events can be found on this page. The show is free to walk around and view but there is $9.95 charge if you want to enter your car.
Josh
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I'll be there again this year. Already bought a spot in the driving school and show.
Josh
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I used a 1990 5.0 out of a Mustang for my swap. Crispness of throttle is nice and the ECU sets the rev limit at 6250 rpm. This can be adjusted with the right software but isn't necessary if you keep the stock cam and intake. As for the difference in stock intake manifolds you can use either the 87-93 or 94-95 manifolds but whichever one you choose requires you to use many parts specific to that manifold, ie. throttle body, EGR and valve covers. There is also a difference in HP levels between the 87-93 and 94-95 engines but I have been told that this difference is really due to a change in how HP was rated by Ford. Who knows?
I would go with a 88-91? (not sure of the exact year Ford went to the hyperuetectic pistons) engine as they have forged pistons and a stronger aftermarket. Just be sure to set the engine down far enough that the hood and intake clear or you will need a blister in the hood.
As for horsepower stats, my brother and I recently had a Mustang (stock other than shorty headers, Bassani X pipe and three chamber Flowmasters) on a chassis dyno and it pulled 217HP and 275 ft/lbs of torque to the rear wheels. It also passed CA emissions a few days before with a HC count of 19ppm.
If you want more info on the engines and their potential check out Mustang sites like http://www.corral.net
I am very happy with my swap.
Josh
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Mike,
Here's the Jags That Run (JTR) website. http://www.jagsthatrun.com/
I decided to build a mount similar to what Datsun used to mount the stock transmission. If you are familiar with the mounting system used in the 72 and later cars mine is similar except it is bolted to the transmission tunnel rather than welded. Unfortunately, I don't have any pictures of the install let me see if I have a drawing somewhere.
If you are looking for the easiest mounting solution the JTR mount is the way to go. My only reservation was the idea of bolting the 3rd motor mount (transmission mount) to the floorboards of a Datsun, which we all know have a tendancy to rust.
Dan-I will have my Ford EFI powerd Z at the Rio Vista show this year.
Josh
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I am somewhat familiar with a few other EFI setups on the various 5L applications and they are pretty much the same with only a few differences. The main differences are how the wiring harness is laid out (battery and ground connections mainly) and whether or not the EFI is setup for speed density or MAF and the different firing orders between Standard Output and HO engines. This assumes we're comparing EFI among 87-93 cars. I would guess that the reason you see more Mustang EFI info is due to how common the Mustang engine and EFI is and the fact that many who purchase a Ford EFI engine for a swap want the more power and performance oriented setups found in the Mustangs. Externally, the Crown Vic 5L and the 5L HO are very similar but internally they are different and the Crown Vic is down on power. If you don't mind the lower power level the Crown Vic would be a good swap. The torque of the Crown Vic is still more than what came in the ZX so I'm sure the seat of the pants feel would be favorable even though you may be down a few horsepower.
As for the wiring, the Ford harnesses are pretty much a stand alone part. When you remove it from the car be careful to mark each connection (as was stated earlier) and follow it to a connector or end rather than cutting the wire. This will make reinstalling the harness in the ZX much easier. I believe the AOD wiring is part of the engine harness so you may get lucky and not really have to wire much other than the standard 12V+'s and grounds. The wiring on my swap was one of the easier parts of the swap. If you have questions feel free to post them here, the HybridZ members are very helpful.
Josh
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Also look at Hanlon Motorsports. http://www.hanlonmotorsports.com I have seen and purchased a few different T5 rebuild kits from various sources and Hanlon seems to have the most inclusive kits. They also have four seperate kits for four different rebuilds in mind. They should be able to help you make your decision.
Josh
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I used both the 5/8" support bearing and 5/8" U-Joint. I did use some aluminum tape wrapped on the steering rod as a bushing where my support bearing is located. Before I had the aluminum tape on the steering shaft the shaft would move just enough to give the steering an uneven feel as I turned it lock to lock.
For the water pump I went with a mid-80's LTD 5.0L water pump after reading that the impeller was less directional than the standard Mustang pump. I then plumbed a stock 280ZX radiator with long hoses (temporary solution). The engine has idled for fifteen straight minutes and been driven several times and I haven't seen any cooling problems.
Josh
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I purchased my U-Joint from Coleman Racing online. The bore size was 5/8" and had a little play when the shaft was installed. I then had the shaft welded in place. Here's the like to the catalog page.
http://www.colemanracing.com/section/index.htp?id=27
Can you explain more on how you modified the engine mounts to lower the engine enough to clear the hood? Mine is about 1/2" too tall still.
Josh
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Ford Escort
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One to add to the cheesy car movie list is "Catch Me If You Can." Not the recent movie with Leo DiCaprio, much earlier (1989 I believe). It's about some high school students who drag race local thugs for money as a fundraiser for the school. Classic! If you're curious do a search for "Catch Me If You Can" and "Matt Lattanzi."
A good technical drag racing movie/documentary is "American Nitro." This was filmed in the mid-70's and focuses some on the technical aspects of the cars but mostly on the business of drag racing. It's an interesting look into the transition drag racing made from a small sport to a big dollar event.
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It would be a unique install. I'm not sure of any Ford "M" motors swapped into a Z. Those engines were only built for a few years and the aftermarket support is much smaller than the Windsor or Cleveland versions. If I remember correctly, their power to size/weight ratio wasn't very good and they were really a reaction to smog and horsepower requirements of the 1970's (this is from what I have been told). The 5.0L version is so popular because of it's size and power. It's a very compact package for the power and because the 87-93 Mustang was so popular the aftermarket support is large. Also, the engines are easy to come by and range in price from dirt cheap to expensive depending on it's previous life, current condition and modifications.
Does anybody else have any info on the 351 and 400M engines?
Josh
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For the most part the 87-93 engine packages are all the same. There are some smaller differences that may or may not make a difference to you. California cars were equipped with Mass Air sensors in 1988 which is desirable in the Ford circles and the 5.0L's up to 1991 (I believe) have forged pistons. When I buy these engines I try to purchase the 88-90's for this reason. One thing I just learned is that the upper intake manifold on the 94-95 engines is 1.5" shorter than the manifold used on the 87-93 cars. This accounts for the 10hp decrease in 1994-95 cars but may give you a little more hood clearance if it is an issue.
Josh
5.0 vs 5.0 HO. Is it worth $1250 more
in Ford V8Z Tech Board
Posted
Be careful and do your homework before buying either engine. Determine what you plan to do the engine and then make your purchase. The balance issue Zorro brought up is valid but it is really an engine year change and not an engine model change that brought about the change from 28oz to 50oz counter balancing. The change took place in the very early 80's and all Ford 302's afterwards were 50oz engines. The important differences between the 302 and 302HO's are forged pistons, 351W firing order (due to cam design) on HO's and heads. The HO's received the better parts and had a slight increase in horsepower and torque because of this. If you are looking for a base engine to tear into, change the pistons, cam and heads don't bother with the HO. All of the parts you will be replacing are the parts that make the HO different.
As Capt. Zorro stated, I would look into buying the Lincoln LSC engine over a Mustang engine. I have been buying these engines for 302 build ups for a long time since they are generally cheap, for the same engine, and most Lincoln drivers treat their cars a little better than Mustang drivers. If you decide to go with EFI there are other changes to be aware of so search the forum and read up on those differences.
Josh