Renalicious

Yeah, I think I've given up on the flat-plane crank myself, but only because of the high costs involved. Barring I win the lotto, and or my income doubles / triples, my plan is now as follows Get a low cost V8. GM, Ford, whatever. For now LS1 seems like the best choice, although the Ford Modular V8 might also be a viable alternative? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Modular_engine Instead of the custom crankshaft and camshaft, I will go with a high quality professional exhaust system to achieve the desired equal pulse setup. Either 180* 4-2-1, or 8-1. And because I'm not going for ultimate power, I don't think I'll mind the documented power loss. I've mulled over this for months, but in the end I think this is the most economical solution. Not only that but I don't need to worry about harmonics, also I can switch over to a more traditional setup for the muscle car sound without touching the engine As far as the high revs of the engine as long as I can reach 8000 I'll be happy. The general consensus among LSx users is you don't need to go small to rev high (As has been mentioned in this thread). The valve train is far more the limiting factor, and even with stock pistons and crank the LS1 can rev up to 8K or so with a stronger top end. Ideally 9000 is my target, 10K would be nice, but probably start requiring exotic high end parts at that point. I'm sure this rings true with most engines. As such, if I go with the LS1 I may stick with the stock crank but light weight pistons and rods. The 4.8L crank (5.3L in an LS1) is always an option for longevity and overall reliability with it's shorter stroke. I think I can build this all for about $7000 to $10000: $2000 - $2500 for a used engine $2000 for the higher end parts $1500 - $2500 for the exhaust $1500 for misc parts Another $10000 for the car and other upgrades sounds reasonable too. So if I can keep it around $20K all in, the wife will be happy Still, I look forward to seeing what people with more money can come up with regards to the flat plane setup

Awesome crank! And its great to see a physical manifestation of so many pages worth of discussion. You mentioned that it would cost about $2500 - $4000 to get one fabricated. Does that mean basically getting what you're holding there? Or being able to modify it for a shorter stroke, etc. Ideally I'm still aiming for a 4L or less SBC. Can't wait to see pictures / videos on the progress

Sorry, didn't mean to pollute the thread with useless information

Going though my archives of videos I came across this: I kind of wish I was more into this topic back then, I could have asked them about the engine they were using

I think the biggest issue I would have with that motor is the attached gearbox. I think if I was to stick two engines together I would go for something like a pair of Mazda 1.8L v6's, and get a 3.6L v12 out of it. Of course the only problem with that is that it would end up being a LONG engine... maybe too long for most cars out there BTW, has anyone looked into the W8 engines from VW? Looking at animations on youtube they are essentially flatplane engines.

Heh, well it would certainly make it cheaper to build! Currently I have my project priced out at around $32K, eep! That's car, tool, engine, custom parts etc. Although I would still like to make it 4L or so, which means custom crank, custom rods, dry sump, etc... just to get those high revs. That might cut the cost down by a few grand at least. I wonder how easy it is to make an accurate equal length 8-1 header system

Because I'm going with forced induction and don't have to worry about exhaust tuning, would an 8-1 collector do more to achieve for the smooth sound than a typical x-pipe or 180 degree exhaust? If all the cylinders feed into one area, it shouldn't matter what order they fire in, right?

Hey Braap, who made that rare SBC flatplane crank you posted a picture of in the first page of this thread? Seems like the work is done already, we just need to get a copy of the specs, and change the stroke to suit our needs

Some initial cost estimates: GM LS1 / LS6 engine total:$14380 Crate engine $2000 Custom flatplane crank (62mm) $2500 Custom +15mm conrods (6.69") $1500 Custom camshaft $1000 Light weight valves $400 Light weight +15cc pistons $700 Performance lifters $220 Dry Sump kit $2500 Oil cooler $700 Vortech V-2SQ supercharger $2500 Lightweight flywheel $360 Do you guys think this sounds reasonable? Or am I way off in one way or another.

Hmmm, the LS1 / LS6 is something I haven't really considered for some reason. I guess I figured that the LS2 is just newer and therefore "better", so why not use it. But the news about the cam shaft makes me rethink those older engine. $1000 for an old LS1 bare bones vs $9000 for an LS3 crate turn key, hmmm! A 62mm stroke will give me 3.8L, which is better from a vibration point of view. 15cc pistons would raise compression to 8.8:1. I'm sure I could go more but I don't want to start adding more weight to the pistons, at least more than necessary. I found a good cam profile for superchared engines from camshaft shop. Add a Vortech V2-sq supercharger and the results could look like this. Theoretically speaking, it looks like the HP doesn't start dropping off sharply until at least 10K. I will try to keep as many parts stock as possible, but I'm sure that high RPM will require exotic parts anyways: Dry sump, light weight valves, light weight rods, etc.

I think I'm leaning more towards a SBC as well, if even because it's more common. And the fact that people here seem to be going with it, the costs will be laid out and we could possibly even do a group buy. It seems like a bit of a setback with the cam shaft news. However I'm still under the impression that if someone gets their hands on an SBC cam, gets all the proper measurements, it shouldn't cost that much more to rearrange the lobes, right? Grinding metal based on one set of dimentions shouldn't cost anymore than grinding metal based on a similar, but different set of dimensions O_o As for the crank, for me I would like to get a SBC to around 4L (LS3 -> 103.25mm x 60mm). LONG rods, 15cc pistons, and supercharger to get nice power and good torque AND high rpm. I would settle for 9000rpm, though 10K would be nice. Heh, of course I'm still debating whether to use other DOHC V8s like the 1UZFE, or the heavy VH41DE. So many options! So many pros / cons to consider

So after some more thinking, and writing out the costs of everything, I think I'm gonna start looking for a cheaper option for this v8 engine. I'm considering that Rover v8 and TVR crank that was mentioned. I mean, if the work is basically already done, I may as well make use of it. I went from wanting the 1UZ to the LS2 / LS4 because v8 roadsters had the subframe already build for it, and the parts are readily available. But the rover engine looks enticing now too... but how new are these engines, and how easy is it to locate parts?

You know, this is a bit off topic, but I was thinking today; You ever wonder what a 180 exhaust would sound on a flat plane engine? lol. Would it make it sound like a muscle car? Or just a more rumbly yet very even V8

Nah it's ok. There are so many ways to go about this, and it all depends on one's wallet and mechanical prowess. I'm choosing a different engine than most, and going for a different power band, so there are different parts available to me. Because of that I'm more inclined to modifying existing performance parts to suit my needs, while keeping the rest stock

I personally don't have any experience building custom blocks, nor do I really have the desire. Also the fact that I wouldn't have need to more than 1, maybe 2 engines for my project could I really justify something like this? I can see how using off the shelf 4-banger parts would be handy, but for my purposes there are a lot of off the shelf performance parts for the 1UZ as well. Maybe my goals are a bit different, but I'm really trying to keep as much stock as possible then throw on a supercharger. I've calculated that destroking the 1UZ from 4L to 3L (82.5mm stroke to 62.5mm) will cut compression down to "Too Low" ~4:1. If I increase my con-rod length by 10mm and get the piston's TDC to be the same as a stock 1UZ, then I get 8.12:1. Great for forced induction, even at low boost: about 350ft-lbs and 450HP at 9000 - 10000 rpm with performance cams + porting. And being 3L with light weight parts it will have about as much 2nd order harmonics as a 2.2L 4 banger or less. I have my cam profiles picked out so it's a matter of saying "make me something like this, but swap these and these lobes". As for the crank shaft, well, why not use the 1UZ's cross-plane bearing and crank pin design, lose the heavy weights, and make it flat plane? I mean, if all you're doing is rearranging things and counter ballancing 50% - 100%, it can't be THAT hard to do for someone who deals with this all day long. Half the work should already be done by all the egg heads who made the engine in the first place I know that it may not be that easy as it sounds, but in some ways it can't be as complicated as we make it out to be either. Lextreme.com already has a bunch of performance items; I would need to contact them and ask for minor modifications to some things, and major modifications to others. I also factor in electrical, wiring, and all the plumming in the equation as well, so sticking with a pre-wired factory block has more advantages for me. I definitely commend people who design and build their own custom engines as they can definitely make money out of it to cover the cost of R&D, and I'm sure they also have a lot of experience and engineering know how too. There isn't only one way to go about this, so it'll be interesting to see what people do Who knows, maybe I'll end up going with a 180degree exhaust because it'll save a lot of headaches

Hmm, you're right about the engine weight, the vh41 weighs a ton compared to other V8's. The RV8 is definitely looking more and more tempting, aside from all those pushrods. I think for now I'll look into a 1UZ instead, at least there are more parts for it (compared to the VH), less weight, and OHC. Still, as far as the flatplane crank is concerned, the RV8 already seems to have it covered. Looks like there is a lot more for me to consider before I dive into the project Time to start digging up more engine specs! Thanks for the tips guys!

That's definitely one option for me. However that engine looks pretty old and with pushrods, something I want to avoid if possible. Like most people here I want to get this engine to rev to around 9000 if possible, so I'm worried that old engines like that just won't cut it. What I like about vh41 is all the modern bell and whistles: DOHC, roller rockers, electronic ignition, fuel injection, and is probably quite a bit lighter too. Thanks for the heads up though

Maybe not, but it'll sure come close! http://www.revsearch.com/dynamometer/headers.html http://www.revsearch.com/sounds/dodge450.wav It sounds like a flat plane, with the crackling idle of big block. Actually, it kind of sounds like a WW2 fighter plane I think any screaming exhaust requires short tubes, as this v6 NSX demonstrates: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qlc1B9iPh5w Sounds great, exotic, almost ferrari-ish, just lower pitch.

Greetings! Over the past couple of days I have been reading the 30 odd pages all to do with a single plane crank for V8s, as it's also something I want to do for my own project car A bit of background about my journey. I started off in performance cars with a Porsche 968, having a large 3L 4 banger. I had big plans for that car, but saddly with all my haste I ended up spending a lot of money (more than I'm ashamed to admit) chasing oil leaks. All that money gone due to the fact that I didn't have the space nor tools to work on it myself. A few weeks ago I ended up selling the car because of the hole I had gotten myself into, and the ressesion REALLY didn't help matters. But looking back on it, I think that car was simply too nice to mod and tweak and do all the things that I've wanted to do. That and I was kind of tired of the 4 banger sound. straight / v6's and V8 are a lot more exotic. While there have been a few V8 swaps in 944s and 968s, I wasn't willing to go that far. And I've always lusted after the ferrari sound, so I started entertaing the idea of getting something new WITH a V8. Anyways, my plans for the next true project car (which is quite a few years away at this point) are to build something that is small and light, with lots of low end torque for autocross and the like. Basically a Miata (2nd body style), and a V8. Originally I had thought about going with a small high revving V6, but the more I started looking into engines and HOW they work, along with the math of it all, and displacement, # of pistons... the more I realized that things just didn't work the way I thought they did. I eventually settled on a V8, and thankfully there have been a bunch of V8 miata swaps already, so much so that one company is offering an almost off-the-shelf kit for them! I have always liked the sound a 6 bangers because of the smooth crisp sound, and even more so with exotic V8s. However V8s have more torque AND I can end up getting that ferrari sound with a bit of work. Got my hands on desktop dyno and started playing around. Then I ran into this place and realized there are people who want the same thing, and have already done some of the leg work! So... my current choice of engine is the VH41DE, destroked to 3.6L, with all stock internals except for these ellusive custom singleplane crankshafts and camshafts. Bore: 92.96mm / 3.66" Stroke: 66.04mm / 2.6" CC: 3586.05cc / 218.8 ci Compression ration: 6:1 Intake valve: 38mm / 1.496" Exhaust valve: 33mm / 1.299" Int lift: 9.35mm / 0.368" Exh lift: 9.02mm / 0.355" IVO: 0 BTDC IVC: 68 ABDC EVO: 60 BBDC EVC: 8 ATDC Of course a compression ratio of 6:1 is pretty low for NA, but good for forced induction, so I may as well throw a supercharger on there Maybe a Paxton NOVI 2000 at 10PSI. Which, according to desktop dyno, would theoretically put me over 400 HP from 6000 - 8000, and 360ft-lbs from 5000 - 6000. Now, my goal is more low end torque rather than huge peak HP, but I still want these high revs, maybe 8000 - 9000, which is where less stroke comes in. I would kind of like to run NA, but that means raising the compression back up. If I add 4.955mm to the length of the conrods, it raises to 9:1 (Running 3.6L), which is much better, but still low for NA. Keeping the supercharger at low boost flattens the torque curve, and gives me power all the way up to 9000rpm Of course the main reason with going with the Vh41de instead of a SBC or SBF is the fact that I get DOHC, and not have to deal with pushrods. Sure the cost will be greater for cams, but I would rather have the peace of mind of DOHC than have to worry if I'm gonna bend a rod (Man oh man talking about engines can sound naughty lol). All that's left is finding someone who will make these cranks, and playing around with cam angles for maximum torque. Maybe finding roller rockers / lifters for less friction. Here are some quick images of what Desktop Dyno 2000 has to say about my engine: Low compression high boost: Mid compression, low boost: At least with forced induction the intake and exhaust design aren't AS important for power I'm not sure if you guys have used this software before (and there are newer versions available), but it will give you the ability to play around with bores, strokes, compression ration, and everything else engine related to see just how small changes will affect the power you want to achieve. Sadly it doesn't give any info about engine harmonics, or at what RPM the engine explodes Still, thanks for all the great info and links to different manufacturers! Like I said, my project is still a couple of years away at best, but I share the 180 degree passion all the same. Hopefully the costs I'll be facing will only be for the crankshaft, 4 cams, and possibly longer conrods and springs. Everything else should be able to handle 8000rpm, maybe even 9000.