Anyone ever consider a 351C for their z?

[Guest Anonymous]

I am currently in project mode for this swap--the 351C 4V is good for around 450 hp no problem. Anyone in here ever done something like this? I'm looking for any tips I can get.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm currently working on a 351w swap, but don't currently know anything other than the basics from the jtr manual. If you want, email me, and I'll try to get any info you need-

[BLKMGK]

I guess I'd have to ask why?

 

The 351C 2V heads that work so well on the street are hard to get now and expensive if you can find them in good shape. These are iron heads. I'm not aware of any reasonably priced aluminum heads for these engines - SVO might still have some but I'm not sure. Way back when the Cleveland was supposed to be a good engine and people loved them however they had some oiling issues and cylinder head manufacturers were working on heads for current engines. Remember, they don't make 351C anymore and actually I'm not sure they make 351W on the Ford production line either but I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure 302s stopped (sigh).

 

Anyway, there aren't many 351C around compared to 351 and 302W whch share cylinder head designs. As a result the head technology favors the Windsor owner as do prices. 351W parts darn near fall out of trees and finding used aluminum heads is fairly easy too. Headers for a Cleveland might be "intersting" to find too.

 

So... yes a few have mentioned wanting to do this and I've usually said something like I have above. Yes, it shouldcould work and you could certainly overcome any obstacles if you really had the drivemoney to do it. When you were done it would certainly be fast! However I'm not sure that you wouldn't be better off doing a Windsor instead, certainly from a monetary point of view anyway.

 

Why has this caught your fancy? Have you got a Clevland engine sitting around for some reason? Be careful about thinking that because something's handy and maybe free that it's worth doing. In the long run it might turn out to be very expensive indeed. If you DO decide to do it though I think most everyone here will be supportive, including me, but I might have to question your sanity a little bit

[Guest JAMIE T]

I don't see any problem with it. A cleveland is basicilly(real basically) what Ford runs in NASCAR. Canted valve heads unshroud the valves better than wedge heads(inline valves). After the install is done and you are running around killing every street car on the road, you can get some C302B Alum. Roush heads for it and lose some weight(maybe some NASCAR takeoffs) Then again, you could build a Clevor using a windsor block and cleveland heads. A Boss 302 would be a sweet engine in a Z also, light and high revving. More HP is possible with the cleveland type head, that is why every PRO 5.0 racer from FL to CA is running THEM and not TFS Street heats(though St. Heats still rule the lower race classes, with about $3000 worth of port work) So in short, forge forward with the swap and upgrade to Alum parts when the money allows. I know I have seen Clevelands in narrow street rods, so some block huggers are available(I think from Sanderson). As for the oil pan, is the engine in the car yet? You may have to notch your crossmember similar to what Terry(BLUEOVALZ) did when installing his 302. Everything else is pretty much regular engine swap stuff. GOOD LUCK

 

Jamie

Deathstar

[BLKMGK]

Umm, why would street heats be used on a 351W? Those are designed for 302. The high port TFS were designed for bigger motors but are no longer made. There are TONS of Windsor heads out there designed to flow big air these days - you don't have to go to a Cleveland setup to get that! Some of those PRO 5.0 guys are buying bare castings and going nuts to get them to flow the way they want - think Glidden moving VALVES around. Those are RACE parts and have NO place on the street in the RPM and power ranges we want. You want a PRO 5.0 motor on the street?! NASCAR parts generally equal cubic dollar outlay and if bought new are going to be rough requiring machine work. This is a STREET CAR guys...

 

If you're dead set on a NASCAR motor though I've found a potential source for parts. I've not YET looked at it but this place was written up in Hot Rod in the July issue. www.bidracer.com is a USED NASCAR parts place. Figure on paying just over $3K for a pair of heads and supposedly $1800 or so for a "race prepped" block. 600HP can supposedly be gotten for oh about $9K. August issue will show you how to convert that dry sump motor to wet sump for additional $. The place is in North Carolina and is apparently stacked to the ceilings with NASCAR parts including exhaust and body parts Pickup the HotRod issue on the newstand and check it out. I still see NO real good reason to do a 351C for the street but suit yourself, it could certainly be done.

[BLKMGK]

Did a little checking and asking over at th eshop - they too said to stay away from the Cleveland and they do 99% Ford Mustangs all day long... Anyway, Pro 5.0 cars if they're competitive are making between 1500 and 1800HP, I think we can rule them out as a yardstick. I'm also told that they aren't using Cleveland style heads but I didn't press them on that. My guys ARE using Street Heats on some 351W combo's - "stage 3 porting and some decent cash" are what make those work.

 

No one was sure about what NASCAR is running but everyone agreed that used NASCAR parts have TONS of life left in them but you have to KNOW what you're buying as those guys do lot's of funky things. Read the HotRod mag to learn more.

 

Heh, this same shop is getting 600+HP to the rear wheels on Cobra modulars and have gotten 500+ out of 302s. If they tell me something works I listen (shrug)

[Guest fordguy57]

The 351W has come a long way since it's debut, but there was no comparison between the Cleveland and Windsor motors back at the time of their introduction. The Windsor's were essentially modest grocery-getter's, even "doggy" engines in my experience. Though the Windsor is now evolved into something to be reckoned with, I still prefer the Cleveland series of the two. They were designed to be factory Chevy killers and were the favored engines for racers for quite a few years (manageable oiling issues or not..). There is a reason that you can still get a lot of hi-po parts for that motor... Only reason the Windsor has gained ground on the Cleveland is that Ford dropped the Cleveland for economy reasons in the early emissions years and the aftermarket is not going to develop a lot of new stuff for a dis-continued engine. But the Windsor was always a "poor cousin" to the Cleveland until fairly recently and variants of it have continued to be raced by the factory. Of course, the 302 is still probably the most logical choice of these 3 engines to install in a Z; but part of this is about trying something different too. 351C 2V heads are still cheap and plentiful (same as 400 heads). The 351 4V closed chamber head is getting scarce, but not too hard to find still. And there are Aussie heads available that are probably the best factory iron heads for it anyway (not real cheap though..). Even the 400 is no heavier than a SBC, and a 400 4wd rear drop pan fits 351C too & looks ...like it might well fit in Datsun bay.... I am contemplating using a pair of 4V heads & headers (got along with a 351C Torino I bought..) on a 400 engine block (paid $15 for whole motor) to utilize the big ports. Have the block decked & thin head gasket to boost compression (see HRM archives, 1998? to around 9.5:1, balance the $85 crank kit I got for the 400 and see what happens. Trans might be a complication though... (460 bell pattern), but that's not an issue with a 351C. Is there anyone out there who has done either the 351C or 400 already?

[BLKMGK]

Windsors did indeed start out as grocery getters but they've come a good loong ways from that now Stroker kits get you to over 400cubes if you want and blowers can be bolted on with a minimum of fuss. Parts availability can't be beat especially if you want an aluminum head. Bearing speeds ARE supposed to be an issue but honestly I've not had a need to spin a motor over 6500RPM in awhile. Most of mine are done by 6K except for the rotary . Higher speeds put higher loads on a motor all around, I don't mind having an engine all done by 6500 (shrug).

 

Anyway, I've seen some writeups on the 400's. Talk about a stepchild Those motors never got any respect but they've apparently got some potential for performance. Not sure if they weight much more though and in a Z I'd be worried about weight. There's no sens in giving up our weight advantage if we can help it.

 

Hrm, read an interesting blurb on a NASCAR site today hunting aorund - NASCAR motors are all around 350 cubes (I knew that) and are mostly destroked motors, this I didn't know! I spoke to a guy once who had destroked a 351W, he claimed it revved like mad and made lot's of power! Very interesting but can't help but wonder about bearing speeds, anyone know how this is overcome?

 

Ah well, I'm SBC for now but if I did anohter Z it would no doubt be something interesting like an EFI Windsor or maybe a Buick like Scotties

 

[ July 03, 2001: Message edited by: BLKMGK ]

[tonycharger72]

So no one has actually put a 351c into their Z? 302c for that matter?

 

Don't suppose you can purchase a rear oil pan for these engines?

[kiwi303]

Haven't heard of anyone doing so, but I have a rebored 302C block coming my way and a set of heads from a different seller.

[Z24O]

So no one has actually put a 351c into their Z? 302c for that matter?

 

Don't suppose you can purchase a rear oil pan for these engines?

 

i think the bronco had a rear pan sump,and maybe the 4wd F100

[74_5.0L_Z]

Go to this link and scroll down:

 

http://www.kevko.net/ford.htm

 

They make about any pan you like. I had them make a custom 6.5" deep front sump road race pan for my car.

[Torkair]

TBH a Cleveland will fit anywhere that a 302 or 351W will fit, same motor mounts AND tranny bell housing pattern. The oiling issue mentioned earlier is the fact that mains 4 and 5 are absolute last in line to get fed but this is only a problem if you expect the motor to live above 6000 RPM and can be corrected by installing a bypass line from the front of the motor to the back (there are even predrilled fittings on the block for this exact purpose). You can find heads, intakes, and almost anything else you could possibly want for your cleveland from AFD or CHI as well as plentiful stroker kits from Eagle and Scatt, or if you really wanted to you could always get a set of Aussi 302C heads.

 

Most people dont like Clevelands because there is alot of misinformation about them due to the fact that they were ONLY produced for 4 years (1970-1973 with extra motors being installed in cars in 1974). If you're just "putting" a Cleveland together, with a little tweaking, they can make 450+ HP/tq without even trying, whereas if you're going "balls-to-the-walls" you're gonna hit about 700 hp/tq, but I hope you can afford feeding that beast.

 

And the very last bit of info you might want to know: Cleveland heads have the EXACT same head bolt pattern as a 302, 351W, and 351M/400; you just need a custom modified intake to put them on a 302 or 351W whereas a 351M/400 is a tall deck cleveland with 3" main journals instead of the usual Cleveland 2.75".