Headers

[stock600]

Hey all, Ive been searching this for days and wondering if anyone else is running or tried the sanderson cc178 header? My car is a drag only 74 260 that I built back in 1998. I had hell back then finding a good header so I built a cool set of zoomies and always ran a blower. Well I some how just got the old car back after 10 or so years and going a diff. route with the power plant and want down facing exhaust. Engine will prob. be a 434 with maybe 525-550hp and powerglide. I need a 1 7/8 to match my large ports and flow well, these look to maybe fit down in the right area just curious if anyone has ran them. I have a 5/8 u-joint and heim that I plan to move the orig. stearing shaft if need be for the drivers side, the pass. side is wide open. I built this car back then with No side engine mounts; I used a front plate and mid plate so besides the stearing shaft and frame rails its pretty open. Thanks guys. http://www.centuryperformance.com/sanderson-cc178-1-7-8-small-block-chevy-blockhugger-header-set.html

 

Ryan

 

http://www.centuryperformance.com/sanderson-cc178-1-7-8-small-block-chevy-blockhugger-header-set.html

Edited August 23, 2012 by stock600

[stock600]

Well thier on the way, we'll see how they fit. I think that they will flow good if they fit the chassis ok. I got a new pair of pro line alum. 235cc heads today, they should support a bunch of power exp. being blown on methanol.

No one else has tried them? Search came up empty

Ryan

Edited September 5, 2013 by stock600

[rsicard]

Ryan:

 

I also purchased the Sanderson CC178 headers. They DO interfere with the steering shaft. Mocked up a work around two-piece steering shaft for the manual steering. With this much effort to make the stock steering rack work, already had purchased a 1999 Subaru Forrester power steering rack to convert to PS. Also purchased another front cross-member and am in the process of modifying it for the Subaru rack. It appears that this route will be easier to make the steering shaft work perhaps a single piece further outboard clearing the Sanderson CC178 headers. I also opted for a high horsepower SBC. Specifically, a 383 stroker with all forged bottom end, AFR-195 Cylinder Heads, CompCams Solid Roller Camshaft, Pete Jackson camshaft Gear Drive. Going for 500+ maximum HP and TQ.

 

It has been VERY HOT here in Arizona. Have laid off the project for the hot weather. Back at it when it starts to COOL.

[stock600]

Ryan:

 

I also purchased the Sanderson CC178 headers. They DO interfere with the steering shaft. Mocked up a work around two-piece steering shaft for the manual steering. With this much effort to make the stock steering rack work, already had purchased a 1999 Subaru Forrester power steering rack to convert to PS. Also purchased another front cross-member and am in the process of modifying it for the Subaru rack. It appears that this route will be easier to make the steering shaft work perhaps a single piece further outboard clearing the Sanderson CC178 headers. I also opted for a high horsepower SBC. Specifically, a 383 stroker with all forged bottom end, AFR-195 Cylinder Heads, CompCams Solid Roller Camshaft, Pete Jackson camshaft Gear Drive. Going for 500+ maximum HP and TQ.

 

It has been VERY HOT here in Arizona. Have laid off the project for the hot weather. Back at it when it starts to COOL.

 

 

Thanks for the reply, man it's HOT here in Tx. also! Moving the shaft over a bit with a u-joint and heim is not a big deal if it will allow these big tube headers to otherwise fit the chassis. I hope thats the only close spot and I'll be in good shape. I built a race 71 240 years ago and rememeber doing this to that shaft as well. Just now cant remember where I got the universal joint, it mic's out metric in between 9/16" and 5/8". If I could find a 9/16" joint I'd just finish drilling it out to be a interferance fit and weld it up, this would really help keep it running true. Im also doing a 383/glide setup and really looking forward to getting some track time again soon. I had just enough room for 28x 11.5x 15 from my first tub job nearly 20 years ago, I cut them out yesterday and now have 20 inches in the clear on both sides, lol. I'll prob. end up getting a set of 32x14 but could go 32x17x15, sucker would look like a steam roller. thanks again.

 

Ryan

[rsicard]

Ryan:

 

The supplier that I purchased steering shaft parts from was: http://www.woodwardsteering.com/images/steering%20universal%20joints.pdf. I purchased an intermediate bearing from another supplier and fabbed a mount for the bearing for the two-piece steering shaft. You have to patient and VERY carefully study the situation in order to achieve the proper geometry in order to clear the headers. I will look up the other supplier for the bearing and mount for same that will mount to your custom made bracket which must attached to the frame rail. Use WOOD dowel from the Hardware Store to insert into the additional steering shaft universal joints to get the right length of the two to achieve the proper geometry to JUST clear the header.

[rsicard]

Ryan:

 

The other supplier of steering components is http://www.borgeson.com.

[stock600]

Thanks for the reply, which joint did you end up getting? woodard has a 5/8" UA150 for 54 bucks that would work. I dont think Borgeson had a smooth bore smaller than 3/4. I suppose I could machine a 9/16 to 3/4 bushing but...... I found a 1/2" at the local Grainger that I'll machine out to a nice tight fit, it was about the same cost and no shipping or time lost. Headers should be here tomorrow Im going to wait and fab up the steering shaft with the engine/headers in the car, If need be I could go get another 1/2" joint and make a double joint if ness. to get the proper geometry. I'm just really hoping these headers fit well and the ports work well with these big Ol 230cc alum. heads; thier ported to the 1404 which is 1.5" x 1.5" square.

 

Ryan

Edited August 30, 2012 by stock600

[rsicard]

Ryan:

 

Went with 20201 and 20113 part numbers. The latter part no fit directly onto the shaft of the Datsun rack and pinion box. The other end is 3/4" x 20 spline. The 20201 is 3/4" x 20 spline on both sides. Used a Borgeson block and bearing to mock up the center support which attaches to the frame rails via 3/4" x 3/4" welded angle iron. The Borgeson block/bearing is bolted to the angle iron which in turn can be bolted to the frame rail.

[stock600]

Well the 1 7/8 headers worked out very well. My 235cc alum heads use a 1405 gasket which is 1.550 x 1.550 and these ports are larger both at the top and bottom which will flow super well and poss. help reversion. I did have to open the sides up a tick but very little and theres going to work out very nice. I bushed down a 3/4 x 3/4 joint to 5/8 and jogged right around the header wil no trouble along with made a mount and using a CM 5/8 heim joint for extra support. Pistons and rest of rotating assembley came in and should be able to pick up block tomorrow. Im going to torque the mains hard block it and torque the heads and let it set for a couple days before final assembely. Cant hardley wait. Oh, I built the exh. also, it turned out really cool I think. I built some flanges with a 3.5" turnout and mounted them out the front fenders Pro Mod style then ran full mandral 3" tubing from the 3" collectors to just a couple inches inside the 3.5" flanged 45* turnout.

 

Ryan

[rsicard]

Ryan:

 

I think the 3/4 inch steering shafts are OVERKILL. Suggest that you use ARP STUDS for both the crankshaft and cylinder heads. These give a much more accurate torque. I purchased an older Snap On torque wrench that has a dial indicator of torque. I am going to use it along with an ANGLE INDICATOR also. The angle indicator assures that each tightened STUD has the same amount of STRETCH therefore much more accurate torque.

I used 2.5 inch mandrel bent tubing with glass packs along side the T56 transmission back to a "Y" then into 3.0 inch mandrel bent and then to Flowmaster Series 40 muffler. The glass packs should knock off the high frequency component of the exhaust note and the Flowmaster should attenuate the lower frequencies but should still sound GOOD.

 

Personally, I would hard block only 1/2 way up the water jackets to reinforce the bottom end. Then coolant can still be use to cool the cylinder heads and upper portion of the cylinders. I really like to ceramic coat the top of the pistons, Valve faces, underside of Exhaust Valve, Exhaust Ports and the WHOLE combustion chamber by using a used head gasket for masking. Flat Pistons are the best for cleanest combustion. Otherwise using dished pistons should have the best possible quench/squish pad area. For normally aspirated engines, it is best to have ZERO deck as the pistons are flush with top of the piston bores.

 

Which block are you using to achieve 434 cu in?

[stock600]

Ryan:

 

I think the 3/4 inch steering shafts are OVERKILL. Suggest that you use ARP STUDS for both the crankshaft and cylinder heads. These give a much more accurate torque. I purchased an older Snap On torque wrench that has a dial indicator of torque. I am going to use it along with an ANGLE INDICATOR also. The angle indicator assures that each tightened STUD has the same amount of STRETCH therefore much more accurate torque.

I used 2.5 inch mandrel bent tubing with glass packs along side the T56 transmission back to a "Y" then into 3.0 inch mandrel bent and then to Flowmaster Series 40 muffler. The glass packs should knock off the high frequency component of the exhaust note and the Flowmaster should attenuate the lower frequencies but should still sound GOOD.

 

Personally, I would hard block only 1/2 way up the water jackets to reinforce the bottom end. Then coolant can still be use to cool the cylinder heads and upper portion of the cylinders. I really like to ceramic coat the top of the pistons, Valve faces, underside of Exhaust Valve, Exhaust Ports and the WHOLE combustion chamber by using a used head gasket for masking. Flat Pistons are the best for cleanest combustion. Otherwise using dished pistons should have the best possible quench/squish pad area. For normally aspirated engines, it is best to have ZERO deck as the pistons are flush with top of the piston bores.

 

Which block are you using to achieve 434 cu in?

 

 

Ya, I didnt go 3/4" and redo the whole shaft, just poped that 3/4" joint in it to get around the header. It was my cheapest option and the local race shop had it for cheaper than I could get the one at grainger or online. I agree that fat ass joint is over kill Id rather had a bit smaller one but......

 

I also agree on coatings. Im a big believer in them, A dirt track frind of mine has a spot setup in his shop to do his stuff and Im welcome to use the product, blast cabnet, oven, etc..... Acually tomorrow Im doing the pistons valves and combustion chambers. Id prefer a true flat top by design any day but I had to use a .150 dome this go around to get the static ratio of 12.5 : 1 that I was after. It's just a .060" over bore 010 W block, which is the high nickel 2 bolt main, Ive got steel Oliver main caps that are studded in the center and splayed arp's 12 point on the outside bolts. Once line honed I believe this to be quite a bit better than the factory 4 bolt setup. Crank is a 4340 eagle 400 crank that I tuned the mains down to 2.449 from 2.649 to give me that 3.750 stroke; ~390 inches I quess have not put in on paper yet, 383 is with a .030 bore I believe. Also, I just filled the block up to the bottom of the water pump holes for that reason If some one else ever wanted to put it back on gas and need a cooling system, I'd never race anything thats not on methanol myself. I am curious though how others that fill them to the deck surfacekeep the product out of the head bolt holes/threads as there not blind holes. I even had to put tape and silicone in the lower water pump thread holes to keep it from running out of them early.

 

Anyways, I having fun putting the car back together and hope to have it at the track within 2 weeks. Have no idea what its going to run but I geared it for 115mph at 7k, just in case it has enough ass to run the 5.80 class, if not these are lots of weekly index classes that I plan to tune for and maybe run 2 or 3 of them. There are a 5.00 ; 5.80 ;6.0 ; 6.30 ; 6.60 ; 7.00 ; 7.30 ; and a slow 8.30 class. Any of two of them will be lots of fun. I built a throttle stop under the loud pedal [cheap ass] and will keep good logs to dial in for a couple classes.

 

Ryan

[rsicard]

Ryan:

 

It is preferable to use flat top light weight forged (SRP Professional Series) pistons such that the combustion flame front DOES NOT have any obstructions to travel across the piston. Compression ratio can be achieved by milling the cylinder head and using different thickness head gaskets to achieve the desired compression ratio along with near zero decking of piston height relationship with the top of the cylinder wall. The block deck can even be milled such that the piston is protruding ABOVE the deck of the block but not more than the thickness of the head gasket.

 

Additionally, use STUDS for crankshaft mains and cylinder heads as they give a TRUE torque value. Using BOLTS is messing with FALSE torque values. With a 0.060 inch overbore and 3.75 inch stroke yields a 388 cu in displacement. You will have FUN putting the car back together. Good luck in your efforts.

[stock600]

Ive been having hell with the car but a good time as well. Ive been out 5 times and pushed it in the trailer 4 of them. All the failures have been rear end or rear suspension related. Broken gears seized bearings, bend the back half chassis, all kind of wierd stuff. Never made a full pass or a hard t-brake launch but can tell the sucker is going to run hard, its in the 1.34 60' range on the foot brake and playing with the throttle running 6 flat with ease. Ive now completely cut out the back half and redoing it with chrome moly, a fab 9' housing and Big tires 33x17x15 on 15x15 weld wheels. 26" dragster housing puts me at a very tight 59" total width which is what the car is now with all the rear inner fenders cut out all the way up to the rear side glass, Im going to set her in the weeds. I found that the strut inserts for a 280z were a bit more than a inch shorter so I sectioned the strut housing and cut length out of the spring to get her way down in the front. After this new back half and able to put down the power I expect the car to run maybe mid 5's and only gearing it for the 1/8th mile with a 5.82 gear. I plan to run the 5.80 and 6.60 index races this next season. Fun, fun

 

Ryan

[saxfiend1967]

For the record on 9 inch rousch performance.com sells detrokt lockers foe 115. Dollars. I bought an entire rear pumpkin built by them with my gear chooce sbipped for 800. 31 spline. They have been run one race. Sweet deal. I dont want to sound like a know it all but 17/8 sounds big for primaries. I run 13\4 on a 600 plus hp 427 sbc with afr 220 cc. I believe your car will pick up in 60 foot with 13\4.(even though it doesnt sound like you need it) lol

[stock600]

A blown engine just wants the biggest pipe it can get to get rid of the exh. gasses; primary size, pulse flow and merge collectors are not needed and dont follow the same principles as a NA engine.

 

That said if this engine had the blower off of it it would likely be a big turd I built it to be blown. 235cc heads, 11:1 CR, 1 7/8 primarys, and a 1250 CFM methanol carb on top of only 390 CID

Edited December 27, 2012 by stock600

[stock600]

I commented in another header thread but found this one and thought Id update it a little. After completely re backhalfing the car is a super solid totally diff. animal. Handles very well and got to cut some weight while adding a ton of strength in all the right places. It now under 2600 race ready with me inside (Im 225# or so). I'll still be running it in the 5.80 and 6.60 classes but off the stop it will runs 30's no trouble. Even though these big tube shorties fit, I know Im giving up some series flow on the top end with my setup. With a 5k convertor Im only using this engine in the 5-7500 range and its a Blown 383 combo so Im sure Im choking it big time. I hoping to be able to use a 'over the frame rail' style header that the modify guys run in their dirt cars. They have them for Camaros and the metric cars, they look good if they will fit. No more steering shaft, spark plugs, oil filter, oil pan, heat, etc... clearance issues. I think their achievable due to me removing my inner fenders and having all that space open but we will soon see, my new heads should be here this week. Going from the RHS 235 to AFR full Comp CNC, and this got me a 2.100 int valve rather than the 2.08. Im better they run well with my blown combo.

Ryan

[stock600]

Over the winter I decided to ditch the well running 383 and pass it on to a friend and build me a all new 427" sbc from the ground up. 4.125 x 4" in a new Dart block. I then new I wanted all the header flow I could get so started with a new set of Shonfield (sp) 1 7/8" x 3.5" 'over the rail' modified dirt track header and cut them down about half in length. I then stepped them to 2" and ran them back together into a custom 4" collector, then side exit out of the bottom of the front fenders. They flow like crazy and sound unreal! By far the best headers I've ever had on the car and I've owned it for a long time and had and built many sets for it over the years. On paper it looks like it's going to run 4 80's or 90's. I just did a regear in case I want to run the Outlaw 5.0 deal. Only taken it out once just last weekend to put some easy time on the fresh parts and find my 5.80 tune up. I just started at 1/2 throttle to see where that would be and it was a 5.41 so I backed it down and found my 5.80 2 passes later.

 

For anyone that has cut out your inner fenders look at starting with a #156 Shonfield header, they just damn near fit perfect right out of the box, but require tweaking. Never have to worry with steering rod, oil filter, plugs, or plug wires either

[stock600]

Over the winter I decided to ditch the well running 383 and pass it on to a friend and build me a all new 427" sbc from the ground up. 4.125 x 4" in a new Dart block. I then new I wanted all the header flow I could get so started with a new set of Shonfield (sp) 1 7/8" x 3.5" 'over the rail' modified dirt track header and cut them down about half in length. I then stepped them to 2" and ran them back together into a custom 4" collector, then side exit out of the bottom of the front fenders. They flow like crazy and sound unreal! By far the best headers I've ever had on the car and I've owned it for a long time and had and built many sets for it over the years. On paper it looks like it's going to run 4 80's or 90's. I just did a regear in case I want to run the Outlaw 5.0 deal. Only taken it out once just last weekend to put some easy time on the fresh parts and find my 5.80 tune up. I just started at 1/2 throttle to see where that would be and it was a 5.41 so I backed it down and found my 5.80 2 passes later.

 

For anyone that has cut out your inner fenders look at starting with a #156 Shonfield header, they just damn near fit perfect right out of the box, but require tweaking. Never have to worry with steering rod, oil filter, plugs, or plug wires either