Oltmann Posted February 20, 2001 Share Posted February 20, 2001 That sort of sounds like the air flow meter is going bad. Usually if the ECU goes bad it just dies, it won't go nutty like that. Unfortunately the way to test both items is "replace with known good unit." You could try asking the people on z31.com. The first-gen 300ZX has the same engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromio Posted February 20, 2001 Author Share Posted February 20, 2001 Well, the $75, no returns allowed, salvage yard ECM changed nothing. I guess I figured it was worth a try. The TPS checks out, but its pigtail reads 0 volts though, which, according to this terrible Haynes manual (it had the TPS and the nearby throttle open/closed switches labelled backwards, aargh) says indicates either a bad ECM, or an open circuit. The latter seems to be indicated - unless there's something truly fried which takes ECMs out. I thought about trying to run new wires to from the TPS to the ECM, but that probably wouldn't fix it anyway. So, it's off to the (insert disparaging comments here) mechanics. I'm thinking they'll probably get me for somewhere around the price of a used L28T for my Z car. And since my Z is currently up on jacks, the whole family gets to share the one beater Honda. Super. I'm soooo displeased. ------------------ 240Z.jeromio.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Shasteen Posted February 20, 2001 Share Posted February 20, 2001 quote: Originally posted by jeromio: I'm soooo displeased. Wish I could help ya man; I hate wiring shorts myself. Kevin, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromio Posted February 20, 2001 Author Share Posted February 20, 2001 Hope no one minds if I ask this non-Z related question: Is there a relatively easy way to test the Hitachi ECM to see if it's faulty? My wife's Quest/Villager has been wiggin' out lately. Started with a blown out fan motor, then the cruise control went out, then the engine light would go on intermittently. All over the course of 6 months or so. The codes said faulty EGR solenoid and faulty TPS and faulty temp sender. I replaced the temp sender , and a hose on the solenoid. TPS and solenoid test out perfectly. It intermittently knocks really badly. I replaced the O2 sensor. But still, we have to put 93 octane in it or else it will knock. Occasionally (once a month?) it cuts out - which can be terrifying since the power steering no longer works then. Anyway, Friday it cut out on her and then refused to start again. This happened months ago, but that time by the time I arrived, I was able to start it right up. This time nothing. It cranks, I can smell fuel, but no start. There is spark though. So, I've got a used ECM that I'm gonna put in it. But I'm not confident. Anyone have any other ideas? This Haynes manual is useless. It only really covers the 96 and up models (ours is a 95) which are completely different (they switched to OBD in 96). I really, really, REALLY do not want to take it to a mechanic. Thanks. [This message has been edited by jeromio (edited February 19, 2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clint78z Posted February 20, 2001 Share Posted February 20, 2001 If I had to guess I would start with the charging system . Since other electrical components have been acting up . If the ECU doesn't have proper voltage then EFI will not run correctly . TPS sensor is a 0ohms-High restance it should be linear . An engine analyser may be cheaper than replacing parts at random . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromio Posted February 20, 2001 Author Share Posted February 20, 2001 I haven't been able to find an engine analyzer for this car. The TPS works fine - it's the connection (back to the ECM, presumably) that registers 0 volts - book says it should read 5. ------------------ 240Z.jeromio.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike kZ Posted February 20, 2001 Share Posted February 20, 2001 It sounds like you narrowed it down to the wiring. There must be a brake in that pigtail somewere.Can you run temporary wires from the TPS to the ECM? ------------------ http://members.tripod.com/~SnowSurfer/mikekz1.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy 77zt Posted February 21, 2001 Share Posted February 21, 2001 you need to get diagram of efi system and ohm meter wires from plug at tps to ecm plug.a sensor like a tps usually has 3 wires -a 5 volt refrence voltage,a ground back to ecm,and a signal return which would be the voltage that changes with gas pedal movement.if you have the pinouts you cam check all wires but its time consuming.if the 5 volt ref gets shorted to ground it kills the engine.what codes are in it?if it has many codes erase them and drive it till it stalls and recheck and repair that code that comes up.see if you can get into nissan factory tecnical service bullitans.i am a tech at a ford dealer and the first thing we do when we have a problem like this is to hit the fordstar computor-there is usually a fix complete with updated part #.some times we have to work on these van at work because they were sold as mercury villagers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromio Posted February 21, 2001 Author Share Posted February 21, 2001 Well, it's in the shop. They called today to tell me that the timing belt tensioner is hosed. I had replaced the belt about 6 months ago. Not being the trusting sort, I went to the dealership (yes, I took it to the dealership, $70/hr) to see for myself. Sure enough, he's got a spark plug out, taken the top belt cover off (which is a pain, I know from experience), and there's the loose as hell belt. So, either I did a half assed job torking it down after I tensioned the belt, or it just gave out. I have to admit that the former seems more likely (the guy said he's seen tensioners fail before, but this is a really simple part - not hydraulic). So, now I get to pay $700 to have some work done that I already supposedly did my own self. Sucks. And yet, I don't think my ordeal is over since I couldn't get a 5 volt reading from the TPS pigtail. I suppose if the thing was running with a loose belt that could explain the detonation though. I still suspect there is something else wrong. When the car was running, the only codes I got back from it were EGR solenoid and EGR sensor. But both those sensors checked out, and I got voltage from the pigtails back to the ECM as well. I guess I'll find out more tomorrow. I appreciate the suggestions. ------------------ 240Z.jeromio.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromio Posted February 21, 2001 Author Share Posted February 21, 2001 !!AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! They started work. Then they called me. BROKEN CRANKSHAFT??!! The depths of my sorrow..... ------------------ 240Z.jeromio.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clint78z Posted February 21, 2001 Share Posted February 21, 2001 This might be a bit easier unplug TPS and take it for a spin . If it runs just as bad and doesn't get anyworse, chances are you have a break in your TPS wiring . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Shasteen Posted February 21, 2001 Share Posted February 21, 2001 quote: Originally posted by jeromio: !!AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! BROKEN CRANKSHAFT??!! Jerimio, No sarcasm from me; just sympathy. We've all been there-done that; Some of us are still there. Sometimes it seems like it cant get better. But, you will get thru this & things will get better! Kevin, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromio Posted February 21, 2001 Author Share Posted February 21, 2001 Okay, So I've had the van towed back to my house. I've been calling around to Salvage yards for engines. Since there are waaay more Maximas in the yards than Quests/Villagers, I can get a much better deal on that engine. Here's my question: Does anyone know of any significant differences between the Quest and Maxima versions of the VG30? I know the manifolds are different, but obviously I can use the ones I have. On the van, the rightside head (firewall side), has the plugs in the V (otherwise they would be inaccessible) - if the Maxima has them on the exhaust side, then that's a pisser. I suppose I could swap that head, but I dunno if that's worth it for the $150 savings. Ugh. ------------------ 240Z.jeromio.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted February 21, 2001 Share Posted February 21, 2001 Sorry, I can't really help you with your inquiries much... I am just totally surprised about you breaking a crank. I had thought that this nissan cranks were darn near bulletproof. I mean, they are forged, and the VG30 doesn't exactly use a long crank. Have you seen with your own eyes that the crank is broken? I'd check yourself. Also, any idea what caused the break? ------------------ Richard Lewis 1972 240z - L28TURBO transplant ongoing! Drax's 72 240Z Turbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromio Posted February 22, 2001 Author Share Posted February 22, 2001 Well, I just got back from taking a walk. I am SOOOOO angry. I looked at the car when I got home from work. The guy didn't exactly explain it well over the phone. The Crank is broken alright - on the end, where the timing pully is. The freaking MECHANIC broke the crank. The lower timing cover is all bent out, from the inside where the pully must have hit it. The main accessory pully is still attached. Whatever dumbass method he was using to remove that outer pully is what caused the crank to break. When I had looked at the car earlier today in their shop, I noticed a giant pry bar sitting on the engine. I didn't really think anything of it. But if he tried to use that, that surely would've messed things up. So, now tomorrow I get to try and find a lawyer. I am suing. I am extremely %&@#!! I know they did it. There may be some trouble proving it. But, there's absolutely no way that the crank was broken when I brought it in. There's really no way for the crank to break - this is not a race car. The car died while my wife was looking for a parking space! The crank wouldn't even break from removing the pully if the proper tool was used - there's no way. I haven't done anything with it other than take a few pictures (http://jeromio.com/van). It's broken right on the end, probably just behind the ribbed Tbelt pully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted February 22, 2001 Share Posted February 22, 2001 If you have any doubt, I am sure a metals and materials engineer could verify how and when this fracture occured. Might be a worthwhile expert witness. PS: that is BS. The more I hear about things like this, the more I am happy that I will no longer pay anyone to do anything to any of my vehicles. ------------------ Richard Lewis 1972 240z - L28TURBO transplant ongoing! Drax's 72 240Z Turbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Shasteen Posted February 22, 2001 Share Posted February 22, 2001 Jerimio, Now you're in the realm of my specialty; or should I say, my Ex-Insurance job specialty. This is going to be rather lengthy but simple. The Dealership has insurance for this & if there is any remote possibility that they did break the tip of the crank-then their insurance will send an expert out...at their expence to perform an investigation. What you need to do; as pissed off as this might have made you, now is not a time to act irrationally. Dont get an atty yet; most insurance co's will handle a claim properly & in good faith. An atty cant do anything for you that you cant do; on an auto claim-there is nothing for an atty to get out of it in the way of extra damages...such as punitive damages; this means any settlement you get from the dealer (if they do this in house) or from the dealers insurance company will be diminished as the atty will expect 33% of your settlement as payment. What you need to do; first thing in the morning-you need to be at the dealership-get there an hour early if you can-that's when the General Manager's & Shop Formans usually arrive. Ask them who handles their "Insurance Claims" for their "Garage Operations." That's gonna get his attention-dealers dont like turning in insurance claims as their premiums go up when its time to renew just like our premiums do. Usually the General Manager will handle such claims; sometimes its the Shop Forman & some dealers have a claims clerk that does this for them. Dont explain your problem to anyone else other than the to the Owner of the Dealership, General Manager, Shop Foreman or the claims clerk if applicable. Once you have the correct individual: the information you will need from them is: Who is your carrier for your "Garage Operations". Garage Operations is the exposure this kind of loss will fall under. This loss; since this loss occurred while at the dealers premisses-makes them liable. This is called a "Bailment" issue. Bailment simply means you handed over some property to a second party (Dealership) who voluntarily accepted your property (the car). Because they accepted your property voluntarily, they have the duty to give your property back to you in equal or better condition than when you dropped it off. That's all bailment means. There's three possible coverages that apply when dealing w/property not owned by the dealer yet in their car: "Direct Primary", I dont remember the Second & Legal Liability. This claim falls under the "legal liability" exposure as it was their own incompetance that damaged your vehicle. No outside party was at fault here-only the dealership's employee is at fault; this is a First Party Coverage Exposure; their insurance will take care of it. What you have to remember is: 1)This may have been the first time for this to ever happen to you (so it feels personal) 2)Yes it is personal as it was your car that got damaged; however, now its business because it affects you pocket book 3)The dealer may deny it, they may give you a hard time before ever turning the claim in to their carrier. 4)If the dealer is a "Customer Oriented" type dealership then they will do everything they can do to take you out of the middle & indimnify you (make your call whole-again). 5)As new as this to you; it happens to dealerships nation wide everyday & there is a procedure for handlins such events. ^)You have to let this procedure play out-in the end once their expert/or field appraiser/adjuster does their investigation-fault will be determined. The first stage is to get the Owner of the Dealer, Shop Foreman, Claims Clerk...back out to your vehicle; if they dont want to take back your vehicle-then they need to at least turn your complaint into their insurance carrier....that gets the ball rolling. Dont go get an atty-believe me; I've handled thousands of these claims & there is nothing different I would do for you I would not have done with an atty involved-that's called good faith and every insurance acts appropriately in good faith. Atty's dont scare insurance co's unless its a big fatality suit or something like that. By the way; most Insurance Carriers have a 24hour contact policy-they should contact w/in 24hours....sometimes this is actually a 48hour wait; but they will contact you. Their carrier should offer you alternate transportation since it was their insured that messed up your car. They dont owe you an identical vehicle-they owe you "Reasonable" transportation. If you have kids & your wife does all the grocery getting & erands...tell thim this: Because, believe me-they will try to put you in a Yugo if they can get away w/it. The reason it may take 48hours instead of 24 hours it the dealer, once they agree to turn this loss into their carrier-will have to call & turn the loss into their agent (agent-the entity that sold the insurance to the dealer) & the agent will complete a "Notice of Loss" form & fax it to the Claims Center. The claims center probable gets 100 new losses daily; they have to sort out their losses-get the losses to the correct region; input the loss into their computers creating a Claim#; then assign the claim to an overworked & underpaid adjuster. The adjuster then calls the dealer & gets their version of what took place. Then the adjuster will call you & get your version-they may want to take a Recorded Statement so dont flip out when they ask for that. If the dealer doesnt want to turn the claim into their carrier & agrees to fix your problem w/out involving the dealership-that's ok. Many times dealers will attempt to take care of claims "In-House" as this aids to keep their premiums to a minimal. If the dealer agrees to do this-then ask the dealer to sign something simple on paper basically describing the situation & what they're planning on doing-have witnesses sign it: this protects you from any funny stuff-it doesnt have to be elaborate; just firm. The first step tho is to get the ball rolling by placing the dealer on notice-demanding (respectfully) that they turn this into their carrier, or repair the damage they caused w/out charging you for said damages they caused. When their carrier does contact you; Get the: 1) Carrier's Name, Address, Phone# 2) Name of the Insurance Adjuster 3) Claim# & Policy#(they probably wont give that to you but ask for it anyway) 4) Ask what they plan on doing to rectify their insured's incompetance & when can you expect their procedures to begin? Let us know what takes place; hope this helped. Kevin, [This message has been edited by Kevin Shasteen (edited February 21, 2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromio Posted February 22, 2001 Author Share Posted February 22, 2001 My first instinct is to get a lawyer. This is because I am assuming they (the dealership) are going to blow me off, claim that either they did nothing wrong, or that I can't prove anything. I am expecting a HUGE hassle. And yes, I am pissed, and I am afraid that if I try and deal with the shop directly, I'll do or say something that will screw up my chances of getting things made right. I am not anticipating fairness. In hindsight, it would've been way better to have left the car at their shop. The way the guy explained it to me, I was incredulous, but he made it sound like the crankshaft was broken. As in, they "discovered" this problem. SO, I had it towed to my house, without first inspecting it (wife had the one functioning car across town anyway). Trying to be efficient so that I could begin fixing it as soon as possible. Anyway, I'll take your advice and try dealing with them directly first. I'm working on being calm. But also, I'm thinking that I really do not want these same incompetent (expletive-deleted)s to be the ones to actually do the work. I want a check - enough to get the thing repaired outright, as well as a rental. I mean, if they weren't such boobs, we'd have our car back tomorrow. And I definately want my $200 back from the lying bastards. Yes, this is why, as I stated in the opening post of this thread, this is why I really, really, really did not want to take the car to a mechanic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Shasteen Posted February 22, 2001 Share Posted February 22, 2001 Jerimio, I was about to edit my previous entry to tell you the same thing. What Dealer is this? There are only about 3 to 4 major insurance firms that handle Garage Operations. Most dealers will use one of the larger 3 to 4 carriers. There's a 40% chance their carrier is PDP (Preferred Dealers Protection) or John Deere. those are the two largest Garage Op's Carriers & I worked for PDP. You dont have to allow them to repair their screw up. You can take it to any shop you want. Take it to the most expensive shop in town-what ever damages the previous shop did-their carrier is responsible for. However, first & foremost "Fault" has to be proven & accepted from their carrier. Once their carrier agrees that their insured was a fault-then you can drop the "I dont want those idiots working on my car" thinking on them. First Fault has to be determined. Get the dealer involved & get the dealer to turn the loss into their carrier & then report back to us....I'll be watching this thread so dont feel like you're in this alone. Believe me; I've handled thousands of these types of claims-this is the first time it happened to you; but it will get taken care of. Keep your cool; its ok to show emotion when talking to the dealer-but dont "Lose Your Cool" & start demanding this/that & shaking your fist/threatening this/that. As personal as this is for you-your mindset has to be like an atty (ice in your viens); this is business now-It effects you pocket book! Be polite-even tho you dont feel like it; but be firm. You may feel a little anxious when you first begin-just remember we're here walking you thru this! Like I said earlier; they may not want to turn your claim in; sometimes this is a bluff just to see if you'll go away. Look the Owner of the Dealer, Shop Forman, Claims Clerk in the eye & tell them, "Guys, I'm not going away! You damaged my car & I expect you to repair what you damaged!" This is the equivalent to a Gambling/Card game-whoever blinks first loses. If they dont want to help you-then go get an atty; you can even tell them if they dont help-you will get an atty. If they are a "Customer Oriented" Dealer-then they will bend over backwards to you. How they respond will be an indicator of what kind of dealership they are. As far as the vehicle leaving the scene before you noticed the damages; dont worry about that. "YOU ARE NOT THE EXPERT HERE". The dealer is the expert & they acted in bad faith. You merely acted on their "Alleged" good faith. Which makes them even more at fault. Tell them this if they try to give you a hard time. Tell them their actions are exactly what an atty loves to get hold of, "A DEALER ACTING IN BAD FAITH". You can also tell them, "THIS IS WHAT AN ATTY CALLS-DEEP POCKETS". Also remind them that if you do get an atty-because they acted in bad faith that their bill is going to increase. They would diminish their loss if they handled their screw up before an atty gets involved. Make the above statements into one statement: Dont play this hand prematurely-let the dealer play their hands first. If/When they give you a hard time. Tell the Owner of the Dealer, Shop Formean, Claims Clerk: "Guys, right now all you have is an auto Claim, since your mechanic & your service writer attempted to hide this-gave me false info; which equates to "Bad Faith" & now you're telling me you're not goint to help me....If you force me into getting an atty-you no longer have a simple auto claim You now have a "Defensless-Bad Faith" suit. When you tell them this also ask them: "Wouldnt it be better to you in the long run-to fix your mistake & diminish your losses by accepting your mistake; I dont care how you reprimand your mechanic or the service advisor....I just want my car fix'd. If they act in bad faith-that changes many things & an atty would love to get hold of them. Remember, its all a chess match/card game. Whoever blinks/flinches first-loses. Let us know tomorrow how things go. Kevin, [This message has been edited by Kevin Shasteen (edited February 21, 2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy 77zt Posted February 22, 2001 Share Posted February 22, 2001 the hammer jockey broke the crank trying to get the pulley off.i wish you luck with your problem.i know in californa a complaint to consummer affairs usually gets handled fast.all i know i that working at a ford dealer when a mercury villager comes in all the techs go on road test for a long time.probably that way at nissan dealer too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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