Drax240z Posted August 18, 2000 Share Posted August 18, 2000 Has anyone heard about using Toluene in gasoline, specifically with turbo engines, to reduce pinging? Apparently it was used in the mid 80's in F1 cars... Probably expensive, but apparently it allows for some phenominal turbo results. (It speeds combustion considerably) I've read of an example of a 90cid engine with 75+ psi of boost, producing over 1400hp when using toluene. I'm not looking for those numbers, but if anyone knows a source, it might be nice insurance against any kind of detonation. I know its used in TNT, and its also a major component in making polyurethane... Any more info on the product would be appreciated. ------------------ Drax240z 1973 240z - L28TURBO transplant on the way! http://members.xoom.com/r_lewis/datsun.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted August 18, 2000 Share Posted August 18, 2000 Toluene is extremely toxic and very nasty. It was just 1 component in the 'witches brew' fuels used in the F1 turbo days to cope with boost pressures of over 60psi. You don't want to mess with it, it's pretty nasty. ------------------ Morgan morgan@z31.com http://carfiche.com http://z31.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpeedRacer Posted August 19, 2000 Share Posted August 19, 2000 Wow is Morgan right on! Remember seeing the fuel guy all dressed up in his sealed silver suit with special enclosed helmet on. That stuff would take the paint off the nose of the car following behind! BTW, Toluene is also found in paint thinner. The truth is that it burns quite slow (very high octane) but contains more BTU's than gasoline. At the high boost levels they really needed to slow down the burn rate to prevent knocking. Here is a triva question for you. The current rules call for 102 octane "pump" fuel and the current F1 engines have 13+ compression ratios. Why don't they have a pre-ignition (knocking) problem anymore? Answer: At 19,000+ RPM's the engine just plain doesn't have time to form pre-ignition in the combustion chamber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted August 19, 2000 Author Share Posted August 19, 2000 Wow, I really didn't expect this much response/knowledge out there about Toluene. I'd heard it was in paint thinner as well... Didn't know how nasty the stuff was though, I guess it won't find its way into my car! ------------------ Drax240z 1973 240z - L28TURBO transplant on the way! http://members.xoom.com/r_lewis/datsun.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted August 19, 2000 Share Posted August 19, 2000 Actually, Xylene is very popular among the turbo Buick crowd. In its purest form available commercially, it is 117 octane. The reason why it is so popular is that the Buick ECM and performance chips rely on the O2 sensor to control fuel mixture. In order to extract those ungodly HP numbers, very high octane is required and is only available in leaded form which quickly poisons the O2 sensor. Imagine relying on a contaminated O2 sensor to provide input to the ECM for fuel mixture when you are running high boost. This requires the sensor to be changed often and at $36/ea, it adds up quickly. Xylene can be mixed with gasoline safely up to a 3:1 ratio. At that ratio, using 93-octane gas, you get a resultant 99-octane concoction that is lead free and actually cleans the injectors. Because of its properties, a couple of ounces of some "top-end" oil like Marvel should be added. The Buick boys have been doing this years and there are no reported ill effects. I will be experimenting with a chip that runs in open loop mode and ignores the O2 sensor. I plan on using an EGT to monitor the mixture. If that works, then I can run pure leaded gas at the track and a lesser concentrate on the street without concern for the O2 sensor. If that chip does not perform as I want, I plan to run about a 7:1 ratio of 93 to Xylene for a mixture of about 96 octane on the street. If your car does not rely on the O2 sensor, then stick with adding a little race gas. If your ECM relies on the O2 or race gas is not available, Xylene is a proven and safe option. You cannot base any conclusions on what the F1 boys were doing. Remember, they were extracting 1hp/cc, REPEAT, per cc At 60# boost, that 1.5L engine was ingesting a mixture equivalent to 1L per cylinder. If we knew what the c.r. we could calculate the cylinder volume at TDC. We are talking about 1L being compressed into a thimble . I estimate the resulting c.r. to be about 27:1. Thats one massive explosive that requires "witches brew" as was said. Anyways, I am rambling, but F1 technology fascinates me. Not even todays AA/FD can match that HP per displacement. ------------------ Scottie 71 240GN-Z http://www.mindspring.com/~vscott911/gnz.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted August 19, 2000 Share Posted August 19, 2000 If anyone is interested. http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/misc/octanebooster.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted August 19, 2000 Author Share Posted August 19, 2000 Thanks Scottie, interesting stuff! ------------------ Drax240z 1973 240z - L28TURBO transplant on the way! http://members.xoom.com/r_lewis/datsun.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Scott Posted August 20, 2000 Share Posted August 20, 2000 I used to mix and match with my 11.5:1 455. Toluene was avail in bulk at the local paint supply. It and Xylene need to be mixed with at least 10% or greater concentrations to have any effect. These are heavy hydrocarbons so you may need to lean out the fuel system a little. At really high concentrations problems can occur due to its low RVP (Reid Vapor Pressure). Usually a cold start issue, puddling in manifold, but better for resisting vaporlock. Lethal fumes! Lung, red cell, and brain damage! JS [This message has been edited by John Scott (edited August 20, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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