Fuel Infection II (continued on Mike K.'s)

[Modern Motorsports Ltd]

I've read the thread on Mike's initial EFI q's and still have a lot of q's. I'd love to convert my V8 280ZX to EFI this spring if not before and I'd like a TPI setup (just not TBI, not brandname TPI etc). I enjoy figuring things out but don't want to reinvent the wheel on this one. I have a Vic. Jr. intake I'm removing shortly (works great but want better mpg for winter/school etc, edelbrock uses it in their proflo setup) so it's available for machining all winter:-) I do have quite tight hood clearance so that could be an issue. I currently have ~1.25" from top of my carb (air cleaner flange) to my hood, I should gain ~3/4-1" once I lower the motor with custom mounts and custom pan is finished up so that will increase. I could also gain a little with frame/crossmember spacers but would prefer to avoid that route (none their now).

 

Anyhow, onto the EFI, I understand I'd need the injectors/fuel rail, ECU, TPS, O2, throttlebody, ECU interface, wiring harness and possibly knock sensor. As usual I have a hard time believing it's cheapest to buy a full system and have to prove to myself first one way or the other. I want something relatively easy to interface/setup as I want to enjoy this and not dread it. Is the edelbrock proflo setup a good point to start? I was thinking of doing a similar 'home-brew' setup but I haven't got the time to chase down a ton of detail like some on diyEFI332 etc are up to. Can one buy a separate throttle body and rest of the parts sensibly and come out ahead (or even in price and ahead in performance/function)?

 

I have a few qjets around, do they make a good throttlebody donor at all?? What $/where are you buying injectors? Any used deals to watch out for? (ie. can a GM tpi injector/rails/ECU setup be cobbled onto a Vic. jr and X throttlebody??)

 

lookind fwd to info;-)

 

PSS it's destination is my 280ZX V8 used as my only/daily driver that sees a lot of miles, highway and city with summer sessions at lapping days at SIR and Thunderhill etc and hopes for time for autox this summer.

[randy 77zt]

you can get a 4 bbl throttle body to go on the victor junior.there are fuel rail kits for the manifold with weld in injector bosses.after that it is your pick of ecm brand.a company called kinsler fuel injection has all this stuff.plus msd and others.the throttle body is shorter then carb.you can get a dual snorkel bonnet to put the air filters in front of radiator.another good company for general purpose fuel injection is twm induction.easist way to go would probably be a used tpi manifold/fuel rails/injectors with after markit ecmlike haltech,electromotive,sds.i have seen the victor jr with efi used on boats.

[Modern Motorsports Ltd]

I understand the OE GM TPI manifold won't flow much above 5500 or air for 350+hp and the aftermarket runners etc are big dough (my setup is a 400hp roller 350). That's why I was thinking of my Vic. Jr., are throttle bodies expensive? I can't find any pricing on speedpro's offerings (it's been recc'd to me, any comments? I'll have to review the 1st version of this thread) http://www.tciauto.com/ecu/index_spe.htm

 

A TB shorter than a carb would sure be welcome but I have to wonder about the feasibility of converting a Qjet (got lots around, or a Holley) to a TB? doesn't sound like rocket science at all, add a TPS switch linkage and rig up an IAC and vaccum sensor with temp probe right? who's ECU is seen as best bang/buck for my needs? I'm aware their's many offerings and Im' sure many here have done their homework and I'd like to benefit from that.

[Guest Drewz]

I am using a stock GM computer and it is pretty simple to put a TBI. on but tuning it is a different story. Simple if you have patience over the winter to diddle. Want a pic. of my engine? I have a couple on disc now.

 

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The only stupid question is one you wanted to ask but never did!!!

 

Drewz

[Modern Motorsports Ltd]

Sure, fire the pics at me, I'm pretty set on going straight to a TPI setup as far as having a dry manifold and not a TBI setup. Streetability of a Vic. Jr goes way up and many runner issues are minimized (with our ligher setup and a larger ci motor anyhow)

[Guest Fast Frog]

Ross C:

 

As you can tell from the Mikelly Post, there are a ton of ways and preferences for doing a TPI type setup. One way is to find a salvage late model Vette or other such performance model that's got an LT-1 or LXXYYZZ(or whatever)TPI setup and transplant it into your car. Many forum members here have done that with great sucess. But, if you have an older carb setup or a marriage of a variety of engine components, you may not want to throw them all away to do a complete TPI transplant. You can purchase the appropriate aftermarket pieces and build a good TPI setup with what you have now.

 

You would need: (1)A TPI manafold. Besides a variety of oem GM manifolds, to my knowledge only TPIS Industries out of Minnisota, Lingenfelter, and Accel make true TPI manifolds that use 52mm or 58mm TBs. Edelbrock, Holley, et. al. make good FI manifolds with 8 injectors but they are not true tune port injection assemblies. This might be spliting hairs cause all these units probably give about the same performance and fuel economy. (2)Next, you will need a engine mgmt sys(FI and ignition) harness, sensors and ECU. Accel, Electromotive, Haltech, et.al. make good setups for TPIs. Edelbrock, Holley, et.al. usually include the harness, ECU and sensors with the injection package. (3)Next, you need a good fuel delievery sys. Bosch, Paxton, Vortex, et.al. make good hi vol fuel pumps. You'll need at least 30 lb injectors (good for to 475HP with 45+ lbs of fuel pressure). You need 3/8" or 1/2" fuel line. (4)Other options like ignition mgmt can be handled by Accel, Electromotive and HalT with HEI dist and coils.

 

Supposedly, the up side of a TPI sys is its efficiency. For any given HP number, a TPI setup can give that HP with most efficient use of fuel. Also, these aftermarket setups are laptop programmable-change your hds or cam you can reprogram your fuel and ign curve. The down side is that they're pricey. A TPI FI manifold with an aftermarket engine mgmt sys and fuel pump and injectors could cost you $5000-$6000 new. Whereas, an Edelbrock or Holly sys may only cost $2000-$2500 new.

 

In closing, I'll use my setup as an example of creating a TPI setup without doing a complete transplant.

 

'72 Corvette 350 block with 400 crank bored out .030 gives a "383", Crane hyd roller cam, Edelbrock alum hi flo hds, TPIS LT-1 type FI manifold, Accels DFI engine mgmt sys,

Bosch 30# inj and 300lb/hr fuel pump and stock Camaro HEI dist with remote coil.

 

Didn't mean ramble-hope this helps!

 

BTW, my setup is per JTR and I've got plenty of hood clearance. I've even got a front strut brace that crosses over the top of the FI manifold with 1 1/2" of clearance.

 

Good luck!

 

[This message has been edited by Fast Frog (edited September 14, 2000).]

[Drax240z]

Maybe I am missing something, but SDS oes offer programmable fuel injections system new for around $1200US. Crank triggered distributorless ignition, as well as full fuel control. Its worth a look anyway.

 

www.sds-efi.com

 

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Drax240z

1973 240z - L28TURBO transplant on the way!

http://members.xoom.com/r_lewis/datsun.html

 

[This message has been edited by Drax240z (edited September 14, 2000).]

[BLKMGK]

Get a Electromotive catalog. these folks are right up the street from me and while their stuff isn't cherap they DO sell air doors, sensors, and fuel rail stuff at a decent price. Tey even sell what looks to be a hi-flow TPI type intake for the SBC. Their stuff is distrbutorless and waste fire. their packaging leaves a bit to be desired but their datalogging is very nice IMO. They can use MAF and wide band O2 as well.

 

Lot's of options out there. FelPro makes a system and I'm told that the BRAND NEW Holley system is supposed to be awesome but I've NOT seen enough info about it.

 

In this case I do thnk that converting a carb intake to EFI might be a good idea. GM used long runners for intake tuning - to get torque. However they run out of air without parts form places like TPIS which are big bux. I DO liek their little miniram intake though There's also a TPI type deal that sits on a tunnel ram that ough tto flow well. Whew, as I said lot's of options! And yeah, I'd like EFI too but not till the car has run carb a little while - then maybe a blower

[Modern Motorsports Ltd]

thanks for the input to date guys:-)

 

-as I understand it SDS doesn't offer datalogging which I see as a priority to maximize the combo with the miles I put on my car etc so they're out

-my 280ZX V8 setup has quite a different configuration than V8 Z's, hence my stress on that point in my initial post, hood clearance is tight as stated, if I had an extra 1/2" I'd of filled it with a carb spacer by now (it's on the shelf, wouldn't fit)

-I like the edelbrock proflo system but the $3k sticker is the stopper now, I already have the same intake they use so got me thinking to convert mine to a dry one and get best of both worlds (economy and high end hp from single plane)

-it's finding a reasonably priced combo of the remaining (or all if I get a new manifold as well) items as listed to beat the $3k proflo system (I understand it's v. good, comments?)

-Injectors and ECU's seem to an item I might be able to save on with used parts smartly shopped so once I know the best approach and my best system options I'll be ready to pick them up as they're available

-how much are the TPIS big mouth 'LT1' intakes? (why named after the LT1?, flow similar? or similar in looks etc?)

-using a late model LT1 EFI setup matched up with my engine interests me as these systems come available from time to time and parts would be readily available if need be, forgive this q but is it ridiculous to think my Vic. Jr. can be plumbed with injectors and then I make a custom 90 degree transition to mate to my intake that then carries on to a Lt1 (or similar) throttle body up front? I know airflow characteristics are critical and some proper transition from behind TB to intake entrance would have to be dealt with, just seems OE has it all nicely built in already w/o the big sticker price

 

Fast frog: what TB are you using? or is it integrate in that 'lt-1' intake you mention?

[Owen]

I think the SDS is like Haltech, DFI, TEC-II, etc. It's just the computer and engine

harness.

Distributorless ignition would be nice but

make sure the computer can handle it. My

E6K had some limitations when using distributorless ignition.

 

Like FastFrog, I have a TPIS MiniRam2

and there is plenty room for a distributor,

the manifold, and a strut tower bar under

a stock hood.

Owen

 

 

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http://www.homestead.com/s30z/index.html

[clint78z]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ross C:

thanks for the input to date guys:-)

 

-as I understand it SDS doesn't offer datalogging which I see as a priority to maximize the combo with the miles I put on my car etc so they're out

-my 280ZX V8 setup has quite a different configuration than V8 Z's, hence my stress on that point in my initial post, hood clearance is tight as stated, if I had an extra 1/2" I'd of filled it with a carb spacer by now (it's on the shelf, wouldn't fit)

-I like the edelbrock proflo system but the $3k sticker is the stopper now, I already have the same intake they use so got me thinking to convert mine to a dry one and get best of both worlds (economy and high end hp from single plane)

-it's finding a reasonably priced combo of the remaining (or all if I get a new manifold as well) items as listed to beat the $3k proflo system (I understand it's v. good, comments?)

-Injectors and ECU's seem to an item I might be able to save on with used parts smartly shopped so once I know the best approach and my best system options I'll be ready to pick them up as they're available

-how much are the TPIS big mouth 'LT1' intakes? (why named after the LT1?, flow similar? or similar in looks etc?)

-using a late model LT1 EFI setup matched up with my engine interests me as these systems come available from time to time and parts would be readily available if need be, forgive this q but is it ridiculous to think my Vic. Jr. can be plumbed with injectors and then I make a custom 90 degree transition to mate to my intake that then carries on to a Lt1 (or similar) throttle body up front? I know airflow characteristics are critical and some proper transition from behind TB to intake entrance would have to be dealt with, just seems OE has it all nicely built in already w/o the big sticker price

 

Fast frog: what TB are you using? or is it integrate in that 'lt-1' intake you mention?

---

 

You might be able to find a used Accel DFI like mine I payed $350us for mine . Alot of chev 350 guys love this system, and it has a bit of datalogging . You can tune a system almost as good without datalogging it just takes longer .

 

Here's what I would do is get that single plane manifold, be realistic when it comes to rpm limits for intake and cam . Weld injector bungs in . Make a plenum by copying the super-ram setup, sealed top lid . You are right about the 90 turn being big problem, the right size plenum is a good key as well . Then get a good TB simular to the superram . I imagine you could build a good one for $1000cdn .

[Guest Fast Frog]

Ross C:

 

The TPIS setup is very similiar in appearance and function as the GM LT-1 TPI engine used in the Vettes a few yrs back. TPIS has a good engine components catalog with installation tips you can buy from JEGS at less cost than from TPIS. I did my setup by purchasing 4 separate but interacting parts: the mini-ram manifold (which fits any pre '86(?) sbc with a rear mounted dist), the fuel rails, the throttle body which comes with twin 52mm or twin 58mm intakes (I have the 58mm TB) and an adjustable fuel reg.

 

An interesting artical was reprinted in the TPIS catalog form a 1992 Hot Rod Mag feature story comparing the TPIS mini-ram to other types of intakes including the Lingenfelter "Box". I can't remember all the details, but the TPIS setup developed the most HP-485@6500 rpm. The Ligenfelter "Box" was next, etc. The unit that developed the most torq was a stock GM late model TPI sys-something like 480 ft/lbs of torq. According to the founder of TPIS Industries, Myron Cattrell (sp?), the purpose of the mini-ram was to take some excess torq developed by a stock TPI sys and thro it higher up in the rpm range for a longer and slightly flatter power band.

[Owen]

I'm not sure about this but you might want

to check and see if the stock LT1 intake will

fit with your heads. I know the LT1 is reverse cooled and I think they run coolant

thru the TB.

Sorry if I'm wrong.

Owen

 

 

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http://www.homestead.com/s30z/index.html

[Modern Motorsports Ltd]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Owen:

I'm not sure about this but you might want

to check and see if the stock LT1 intake will

fit with your heads. I know the LT1 is reverse cooled and I think they run coolant

thru the TB.

Sorry if I'm wrong.

Owen

 

---

 

Owen, I have 6089 (edel. 64cc rpm) heads so the older style bolt pattern bolted onto a '98 'vortec (ie. oldstyle basically) 350 shortblock rollerized etc. So need an intake that bolts to 'normal' oldstyle head pattern etc, I saw only a 'miniram II' at TPIS http://www.tpis.com/pg9-12.html

for $900US, is this the one you're running fastfrog? Who has the 'superram' setup and/or pics of it? don't see it at TPIS

 

thanks...

[BLKMGK]

Whoa guys - you're making this too complicated!

 

Try this on for size:

 

Get injector bungs from Kinsler or Electromotive. Drill and weldepoxy them into your existing single plane intake.

 

Buy an air door from Kinsler or Electromotive - it looks a bit like a TBI type thing.

 

Build fuel rails, add injectors, plumb fuel lines, add regulator to return line.

 

Bolt-on TPS etc. to air door. Bolt on existing air cleaner to air door using the nice carb stud.

 

Ta Da! Why make the 90degree bend up front at all? They sell air doors to replace carbs on converted vehicles and they flow liek mad - that's what you need.

 

As for building a plenum - why? This is done to increase low-end torque and tune the intake - just like the long runners. We need low-end torque here like a hole in the head - yes? IF you do a TPI type deal go BIG on the plenum and runners to help kill the low end torque and increase upper end breathing.

 

Some links to ponder-> http://www.electromotive-inc.com/fuel_system.htm

http://www.electromotive-inc.com/injection.htm

http://www.electromotive-inc.com/pdf_files/airdor.pdf <-READ THIS!

http://www.electromotive-inc.com/pdf_files/chvmpi.pdf <complete system!

 

I'd link some of Kinsler's stuff too but I'm not finding anything over there. Order their catalog - it costs but I'm told it's damned good and full of good toys

[Z-Dreamer]

Ross C,

Ran across this site awhile back, it appears they sell kits and custom set-ups, including converting an existing manifold. Check it out. www.rancefi.com Mark

 

[This message has been edited by Z-Dreamer (edited September 15, 2000).]

[Modern Motorsports Ltd]

good info all...

 

I really like this air door http://force-efi.com/parts.htm

$525 including TPS and IAC, I'll keep scouting but I do like that...

 

-I'll likely source injectors and any other more available parts local thru a v. good pricing connection...I"ll have to see if they don't have any contacts for any air-doors for this 'multi-port' (I was wrongly calling it tuned port) system I want..

-can anyone toss out a PN for a recc'd injector for me to get an idea on price? and any OE or 'common' company selling fuel rails that I might be able to pull this discount with (or any OEM rails good enough to adapt for my use?)

 

-off the computer for the wknd and looking fwd to reading the replies on my return to the keyboard:-)

 

ahh, found a page with some ECU/controllers pricing info..... http://force-efi.com/price.htm

 

Haltech E6s looks good http://www.haltech.com/

looks like http://www.rancefi.com/ManifoldsforSale/Chevrolet.htm

is similar to proflo kit but with DFI software, do you have to buy the calmap and cable, or can you make the cable and 'copy/borrow' the software?

 

[This message has been edited by Ross C (edited September 15, 2000).]

[Guest Fast Frog]

Ross C:

 

Yes, I'm running Edelbrock's Performer RPM hds part # 6089. My TPIS mini-ram is TPIS part # 500-505. I don't know about the mini-ramII. I bought my TPIS mini-ram over 5 yrs ago; It's probable that TPIS has made an up grade to this component calling it a "II".

 

Please to note! I don't want anyone to think that I'm pushing any product or any particular product setup. I'm just stating what I've got, how it works and that it works great for me and my application (non racing). 5 to 6 yrs ago, before building my setup, I did a fair amount of research and collaboration and decided to go with an Accel/TPIS sys. At that time, many of the fine products mentioned of late, thru out this forum, did not exsist

[clint78z]

Valid point BLKMGK, he probably doesn't need all that torque down low . The Force TB looks like a good way to go . I personally always try to save cash on junkyard parts, and home fabrication . Used injectors can save lots of money as well .

 

The Accel DFI software can be copied from www.whiteracing.org, however the cable has a copyright protection on it .

[BLKMGK]

Hrm, WhiteRacing isn't coming up. However (*ahem*) I've got a copy of the software here somewhere... Cable has a potted box midway down it - not sure what's in it but it's not straight through.

http://force-efi.com/parts.htm them some mighty purty air doors! I like the purple one - a shame it's too big

 

As for fuel rails - buy the stock and make them. OEM stuff will have fittings already on them and in this case you won't know spacing for the holes until AFTER the injectors have been mounted. It's a custom job I'm afraid but several places sell the stuff in 6ft lengths and I don't think it costs too much - but drilling them may be a precision job. Drilling the intake for injectors shouldn't be too bad. You need a press and you need to be using the right size drill but overall it's not bad. I've seen articles on it and they used epoxy to hold them in and a grinder to remove the excess bung through the port. surely somewhere on the 'net there's an article on it...