NHRA rules on fuel cells?

[Guest Night_rider_383]

YES the MOROSO blue batt. box will pass any drag racing tech, nhra, ihra, nmca. (A LIST OF TECH FOR THIS IS AT THE BOTTOM)

 

Read the tech you all might just be shocked by the fast how hear say can be so far from the truth.

 

You dont even need a batt. box if you use a buckhead and you dont need a buckhead if you use a sealed and vented box.

 

Heres a run down on the tech for nhra. This comes stright from nhra's website faq

 

Frequently Asked NHRA Tech Questions

Before sending an e-mail to the NHRA Technical Department, please read the following. If your question is not answered, you may send e-mail to techdept@nhra.com

 

(1)....I have a street car that I occasionally run at the strip. I've relocated the battery to the rear. What else do I need?....

 

Any car with a relocated battery must be equipped with a master electrical cutoff, capable of stopping all electrical functions including ignition (must shut the engine off, as well as fuel pumps, etc.). The switch must be located on the rear of the vehicle, with the "off" position clearly marked. If the switch is of a "push / pull" type, then "push" must be the motion that shuts off the switch, and plastic or "keyed" typed switches are prohibited. Also, the battery must be completely sealed from the driver and/or driver compartment. This means a metal bulkhead must separate the trunk from the driver compartment, or the battery must be located in a sealed, metal box constructed of minimum .024 inch steel or .032 inch aluminum, or in an NHRA accepted plastic box. In cars with a conventional trunk, metal can simply be installed behind the rear seat and under the package tray to effectively seal the battery off from the driver. In a hatchback type vehicle the battery box is usually the easiest solution, since the alternative is to fabricate a bulkhead which seals to the hatch when closed. At present, Moroso is the only company which offers an NHRA accepted plastic battery box, part number 74050.

 

(2)But I drive on the street. I don't want a big cut off switch hanging on the back.....

 

This solution takes a little work, but it solves the problem. Install the master cutoff inside the vehicle, positioned "sideways" so that the toggle moves forward and back. Drill a hole in the toggle handle, and attach a steel rod that will run out the back of the car, through a hole drilled completely through one tail light assembly. Have a spare tail light assembly on hand, so when you come home from the drags, you remove the rod and put the cherry tail light back in for street cruising. Next time you plan on going to the drag strip, swap lights and reinstall the rod. Since the drilled light is for the strip only, you can also have it marked "PUSH OFF" in big letters so the Tech Inspectors will think you're cool.

 

 

I just wanted to throw alittle light on this cause i got jerked around about the same thing when i was building my 1st drag car. I found out diff. after i picked up a rule book lol.

 

John.

[BLKMGK]

Note that the plastic box MUST be NHRA accepted. That Moroso blue box didn't have an NHRA label on it a couple of years ago when I first looked into this - is it NOW? I've seen mention that it's "certified" once or twice but the Jeg's catalog I've got doesn't mention if it's certified or not. IF it is it's one of a very few IMO - most of the marine stuff out there and the Mr. Gasket stuff don't qualify. They aren't saying any sealed plastic box will work - it must be able to survive an impact too.

 

A bulkhead can be run, I've seen that done. Ugly and a PITA but I guess it satisfies the rules on hatchback cars. Lot's of the other boxes out there can be used if you've got a trunk, I don't think it even has to be in anything sealed in that case.

 

Bottom line is you've got to have something to protect it from clocking you in the head on impact and from exploding acid all over you if it blows. I'm bolting my aluminum box down with BIG washers to distribute the load as best I can. I just hope the holdowns are up to the task in case of a collision!

 

P.S. Bought the Flaming River cutoff. It's a BIG mother! Looked at a Moroso unit today too - tiny in comparison but I think it was a 20amp model The high amp Moroso unit might be a better one than the Flaming switch (lol). However I happen to have a hole next to my plate from an old alarm system that should allow me to run this pig. Don't go with a cheap 20amp switch like the bottom line Moroso unit. Good cooling fans can draw 30amps by themselves...

[pparaska]

Jim, if you're totally cutting battery power to everything, the starter draws a good bit more than 20 or 30 amps. More like 75 or 100 amps. I'm using a plastic keyed cut-off switch mounted in the bulkhead behind the passenger seat (switch is in the tool box). The battery box like you have is bolted down above that tool box. It'd take a thief more than 1 or 2 minutes to bypass that switch if I took the key with me .

 

Screw the NHRA. Any of the tracks I'd go to wouldn't care about a rear mounted switch or lever. If they did care, I'd just go home. Besides, they really ought to require the switch be on the GROUND cable, not the positive, but that's an old post .

[Guest Night_rider_383]

BLKMGK.... Yeah the moroso box is "certified" now. I don't deal much with jegs but im my summit it has this 1st "Accepted by the NHRA and IHRA.

 

The big thing about the nhra rules is that no it cant just be sealed but as to be air tight sealed with a vent tube vented outside of the car, steel hold downs in the box also the lid has to be fastened with bolts, 1/4 turn buttons or something like that. Plus it has to be made strong.

 

The cheap boxes from auto zone, wal-mart, and mr gasket well they are strong enuff, but the lid goes on and holds down with a web strap, aint air tight etc.

 

on the trunk you still have to have a sealed box unless you build a buckhead. Cause theres no metal that splits the trunk from the rest of the car. Just cardboard and a rear seat. Now if you build the buckhead you can just bolt the batt. to the trunk floor with steel 3/8'' j bolts and a hold down and pass tech.

[Guest zfan]

Taylor Made sells a good battery box unit. Around a hundred bucks If I remember right. It is mounted to the floor ,deck whatever and has bolts to hold down battery and lid. Is a sealed and vented unit. All aluminum.

 

I have had no problems with it. Mounted in back of the passenger side of car behind rear wheel. Used huge washers just in case.

Mike

[BLKMGK]

Funny you should mention that Pete - I just mounted my switch in back today I had an old alarm switch back there that was no longer used, I had to enlarge the whole (gulp) and now the required switch goes right in. Yes, it's ugly, no I can't reach it up front (sigh). Now that I've read where you put yours I wish I'd read it before mounting mine! It wouldn't have passed tech but part of the reason I mounted mine back there was I saw no good place to easily mount it near the driver (sigh) - your solution rox! Ground versus hot, we've had this talk right? I'm a little torn to be honest. I'm trying to recall why ground is better, other than what will happen if the switch gets grounded in an accident. I've mounted my switch but not yet wired it, I'm going to ponder this. I'll follow the rules until they make zero sense...

 

As for some of the other plastic boxes being strong enough - I wouldn't bet on it and certainly not my life! Talk to someone who's been in an accident with something in the back - the forces are incredible. I'd want something tested which is what that Moroso box sounds like.

 

I DO have a non-sealed steel box in my other car and I don't like it. The Taylor box mentioned sounds like mine only mine doesn't have bolts holding the lid down - I bought it from Summit and I hope it'll pass tech - it's vented correctly. Summit was the only place short of a Rod shop that I could find one.

 

P.S. Pete - the SCCA is supposed to require that rear cutoff too BTW. I will probably sneak a low amp circuit or two off of the battery prior to the switch which is why using it for ground might be harder? I figure alarm, stereo, nothing else and all on fuses. I've got a pair of 30amp circuit breakers in parallel in the Mustang instead of a switch, I'm tempted to use them on this car too if 60amp would be enough. I don't like that long run from the battery to the switch! I've seen what happens when a high amp line gets crossed straight to ground - I lost a car because of that after a small fire burned the insulation off. If you carry an extinguisher always carry a good pair of wire cutters taped to it too - trust me on this! Always cut the battery cable to be sure or the fire is likely to restart.

[Guest Anonymous]

BLKMGK, absolutely!!! As a fire fighter, we cut the + battery cable on any car accident where there is any significant damage to the vehicle, or if the air bags have not deployed (not Z relevant) to help reduce the chance that they will later on...

 

I haven't priced on-board extinguishing systems in a long time, but it might not be a bad idea...

 

I used to have a small Halon extinguisher in my car, but used it on someone else's car, and that was after the ban... Those things ROCK..I need to go steal one from the computer room

[Mike kZ]

Hey Pete, I did the exact same thing as you did. I mounted a keyed cut-off switch in the same place! As for the battery, I added a sump to the stock tank, then centered it. Where the thin part of the tank is, (where it hung under the spare tire well)I sunk a home made battery box in the floor with a lid. I'm also using a dry cell.

[pparaska]

Jim, on the switched negative, yes the reason is that if the rear of the car gets smacked (like backing into a wall or guard rail after a spin) the hot terminals of the switch are exposed and could get grounded to the sheet metal near the cut off switch.

 

Ya know, I was thinking. You could put a Normally Closed (NC) contactor on the battery cable and just switch the contactor. NC would mean that you'd energize the contactor to cut power. Leave it un-energized until there's an emergency. You could have a manual switch in the car up or down stream of the contactor to disable the car day to day. This would save all the extra length of hot battery cable, etc. Of course, it'd work just as well but surely the NHRA and SCCA wouldn't go for it.

 

Well, you guys are making me rethink things. I also have a hole in the back near the license plate that used to have an alarm key switch there (I moved it to the pocket that holds the gas filler cap - behind the door and out of sight!) Maybe I'll do what Jim did and put an NHRA/SCCA switch in there. But I'll probably just install the switch in the hole when I'm at the track and put a plug or something in it for street use.

 

Great idea on the wire cutters! I still have a Halon extinguisher for the car, I'll tape my big electrician's wire cutters (that can cut battery cables in a pinch) to the fire extinguisher.

 

This idea of the insulation melting off the battery cable during a fire or during a short has be thinking that some kind of fireproof sleeving would be in order. Hmm. I need to pull out the electrical catalogs...

[BLKMGK]

But wouldn't that length of negative cable also be just as likely to get grounded? I'm just not quite sure what htis saves other than some cable since I could mount my ground in the back off the switch. What am I missing or is that it? Not sure I'd want my main ground point at the furthest rear of the car

 

As for the remote switch to kill - the street rod guys have those. Cost is about $89 or so from what I've seen. Several are made for this purpose.

 

Lastly, IF you decide to use that small hole back there do NOT get the Flaming River switch. Instead look to the Moroso heavy duty switch. It might not be as nice BUT the hole size is likely okay - the Flaming switch uses a hole of giant proportions! At least I know a new piece of metal between the lights will cover this ugly thing (sigh).

 

I'm considering installing a jumper over the contacts for street use so people can't twiddle it at shows and whatnot (ahem). We'll see, I'm picking up battery lugs tonight...

[pparaska]

It's not the length of cable that concerns me the most, but those exposed terminals on the switch. Smack thre rear of the car and they can find ther way to ground easy enough. Then you have a nicely grounded hot battery cable from the battery.

 

Oh, I'd not ground the switch on the other side, I'd run a huge ground cable up to the engine block near the starter, and then run the rest of my harness grounds from that. That's what I did, but came straight from the battery, and put the switch that's mounted in the tool box area off of the positive side of the battery. If the damage to the car is bad enough to fold up the tool box under the deck of the Z, the passenger and I will be dead, and any fires won't really matter much - I plan to be cremated anyway . I also ran a #10 wire to the dash off of the battery side of the cut-off switch to power the radio, etc., like you mention.

 

It doesn't matter which path (cable, chassis) is longer, positive or negative, they both handle the same current. So using the switch to cut the negative cable or the positive makes no difference, as far as voltage drop.

 

Thanks for the tip on the switch brands!

[BLKMGK]

And now I feel even dumber! Searched for this thread a moment ago and found the previous discussion on this - and posted to it!I knew we'd had this talk before.

 

Pete, I came to the same conclusion you just posted not 30mins ago - I had missed your last response.

 

Sounds like maybe two switches might be in order. One inside for the positive cable where the driver can get at it and one in back for the negative. I hadn't thought of two switches ($). I had hoped to not have to run a negative cable all the way up... Geez, this could get expensive!

 

I'll go sit in the corner now with my dunce cap on. I think I need more sleep or somethin'

[DavyZ]

Don't feel bad; electrical makes my head hurt sometimes too.

[pparaska]

I hate to be a party pooper. But NHRA (and probably SCCA) require the external switch to switch the POSITIVE wire. That's my beef with them - I think they should switch the negative.

 

BTW, welding cable is much cheaper and easier to work with than battery cable.

[Guest Anonymous]

why don't you just use the aluminum cable found in commercial buildings?....lighter....very bendable

[Guest Anonymous]

Careful with aluminum, its fine, but you need to use a anticorrosive liquid on the connections and make sure they are tight and sealed, otherwise they're a good fire risk, most housing quit using it for that very reason and they didn't have the amperage a battery does. Commercial wiring as you say still uses it on large runs but I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with it in my car. Maybe others have experience with it in automotive usage and will say its ok I donno. I'd prefer copper for mine even as heavy as it is, IMHO.

 

Respectfully,

 

Lone

 

Ps: I have seen aluminum used in cheap jumper cables and it got hotter than a $2.00 cap pistol.

 

[ June 08, 2001: Message edited by: lonehdrider ]

[BLKMGK]

I know that NHRA and SCCA require it to be placed on the positive side. However as I also said somewhere here (lol) I will follow their rules up until I realize they don't make sense. In this case you and others have convinced me that their rules, in this case, make no sense and could pose greater risk than doing it your way.

 

Since the tech inspection for this will usually consist of throwing the switch while the car is running to see if it dies - if that - then I feel confident they will not notice. I WILL run a second switch near the driver and would have planned on it before but I saw no good place to mount it. You've taught me that too Master

 

I'd like to know how you ran the cables into the tool compartment though. Did you sink your battery or drill holes etc.? I seem to recall you sank your box, I'm not doing this. I'm NOT running my cables under the car or through the sills, I'm running them from the battery box to the front under the carpet and through a grommet up front. Not perfect but so long as no fool wears golf shoes on the passenger side and gets stupid I should be fine! The seat sliders are nowhere near it BTW.

 

I'm considering drilling a hole into the tool area behind the passenger seat and exiting the wire between the tool doors - sound good?

 

Lastly, I'm using #0 stereo cable for this big run up front. I would use welding stuff but I've not been in one of those shops and the nearest one is a ways away I think. Not sure what that cable costs per foot, the #0 stuff I've got was about $5 and they gave me extra The solenoid is mounted to an existing hole high above the old battery area, has the #0 going to it, and I've got a couple of Taylor braided ground straps on the way for the motor. One side of the switch in back is wired too and extra cable from that run to the battery will be used for the other side of the back switch as a ground. Still need a wire to the starter, still need to final mount the battery box. I'm getting there slowly but surely.

[pparaska]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BLKMGK:

...I'd like to know how you ran the cables into the tool compartment though. Did you sink your battery or drill holes etc.? I seem to recall you sank your box, I'm not doing this. I'm NOT running my cables under the car or through the sills, I'm running them from the battery box to the front under the carpet and through a grommet up front. Not perfect but so long as no fool wears golf shoes on the passenger side and gets stupid I should be fine! The seat sliders are nowhere near it BTW.

---

 

Jim, my battery box is positioned with the length running from the front edge of the package shelf, with the back outside corner of it at the inside corner of the strut tower base - kind of on the passenger side, but near the center (looking for low polar moment of intertia advantages - check the archives ). So it's pretty much centered left/right over the tool box opening. I made up little plates to screw down to the left-over openings (left the tool box door off).

 

The POS cable goes through a grommet down into the tool box, to the terminal on the switch. From the switch, the cable goes to the near the bottom of the tool box, next to the inner wheel house (damn, I need a pic!) through a gromment, and then along the same area the stock harness is, at the corner of the floor and the inner rocker box. Since I have that goofy under-dash A/C box (new with a R-134A evaporator core in it), the pos cable is nowhere anyone could put their foot on it. I just ran it through the same big grommet as the stock harness through the firewall (I took some of those wires out, and added others).

 

quote

I'm considering drilling a hole into the tool area behind the passenger seat and exiting the wire between the tool doors - sound good?

 

Sure, that'll work too. I went over next to the wheel house instead.

 

quote

The solenoid is mounted to an existing hole high above the old battery area, has the #0 going to it, and I've got a couple of Taylor braided ground straps on the way for the motor. One side of the switch in back is wired too and extra cable from that run to the battery will be used for the other side of the back switch as a ground. Still need a wire to the starter, still need to final mount the battery box. I'm getting there slowly but surely.

 

My solenoid is in the same area.

 

I'd run another big cable for ground from the cutoff switch at the rear, all the way to some place on the engine near the starter. I've heard that the unibody is not a very good conductor, and you can lose cranking voltage not having a good ground cable. Welding cable is black, and cheap! I ran mine to the engine block at the bellhousing bolt near the starter. From there, the body harness, dedicated headlight/cooling fan ground, a body ground strap, and even a #8 wire going to the alternator mounting bolt is connected (the bracket was painted with POR-15, so I didn't trust it to break through and ground!).

 

Both sides of the circuits need good current paths to not lose voltage along the way. Ground is just as important as POS, so make sure everything has a sufficient ground path so voltage drops are not induced. And nothing (except maybe a competition sound system 8-P) draws like a starter.

 

BTW, I used 8 gage wire in a few places like the headlight/cooling fan dedicated wiring, the ALT to Solenoid (to provide battery charge and running voltage to the car). The result of all this wiring is about a 1/4 Volt drop from the output of the alternator (right around 14V at idle with the CS-130) versus testing the voltage at the battery terminals. If you don't have good paths on BOTH sides of the circuit (POS and gnd) then you can have a significant voltage drop and the battery (including other stuff) will never get a full charge.

 

Alot of what I did was overkill, but I didn't want any of those problems causing my battery (or other stuff) to get too low a voltage. If the battery never gets enough voltage, it won't get recharged properly, and that hot start problem gets aggravated.

 

Sorry for the preaching, but this stuff gets overlooked (sufficient grounding), so I thought I'd give my thoughts on it since that's where you are working right now.

 

[ June 09, 2001: Message edited by: pparaska ]

[BLKMGK]

Ys' - I know that the circuit is only as good as it's weakest link. i'll likely use both the unibody and a dedicated wire to run grounds. If I run into problems I'll go even bigger!

 

Drilled th etool box etc. today, mounted battery box, waiting for more parts. Don't think I'll be as overboard as yuo but it'll be fairly beefy. Having a switch on both ground and hot sides makes sneaking dedicated circuits out harder but either a circuit breaker or fueable link should work. Anything I sneak out will be drawing millivolts anyway so maybe just a blade fuse assembly for that.

 

About to make a bracket up front to hold my headlight relays and cooling fan relays I've duplicated your cooling fan top install and will be working on th elower portion soon - it's sturdy enough that the lower mount need not support any weight. A shame it doesn't look as good as your's but it IS functional!

 

Getting into the final stretch slowly but surely!

 

P.S. On the subject of juice, accidents, and safety... anyone running one of those fuel pump cutoffs that kill things in the case of an accident? EFI cars run them and my Mustang has one. Am considering it for the Z...