Guest Anonymous Posted July 2, 2000 Share Posted July 2, 2000 I'm thinking that the twin turbo route would be really cool. What size turbos should I be looking for?? E-bay has tons of rebuilt turbos that seem reasonably priced (~$200-$350 ea). If I could take advantage of this I could have a powerful mill for probably under $3000.00. Scottie...any suggestions?? SpencZ MonsterZ Cont. Zdriver.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 2, 2000 Share Posted July 2, 2000 I just remembered something...I was looking through the chevy hi-po section this evening on the 60 deg V6 and found that the aluminum block can't be used to make a 3.4L. The 3.4 has a bore @ stroke of 3.62"x3.31". The bow tie block has a bore range of 3.525-3.582" and a stroke capacity of 3.20". This is kind of a bummer...but with the iron block the engine will still come in at under 350lbs....can't complain about that! The piston issue is somewhat concerning. If the Bow tie block were used I would be curious to find out whether the same pistons used in stroker Nissan motors (KE24) with a bore of 90mm would work with modified rods (buchings in the wrist pins). I don't know the pin height of the stock GM pistons for a comparison but the bow tie block has a bore range of 89-91mm...hmmmm?? SpencZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted July 2, 2000 Share Posted July 2, 2000 I need to know EXACTLY what you want. I like the P series myself, I saw oil seal and bearing issues with the D series when they first came out and they seem to mount further out to the side. The D series might move more air than the older P series. I've got a modded P1200 that will make 10lbs of boost minimum on a 351W, I won't want more than that on that motor. Anyway, do go with the 12rib, do NOT go with a cog - it'll trash the bearings. My P1200 on a race car had the cog and it had to have it's bearings rebuilt as a result. The P600 isn't bad but not race level power. A P1200 isn't bad, not sure what all else thay've got to be honest. Figure out which head unit or kit you want and let me know - I'll find out what sort of price I can get. Used blowers are also worth looking at but ASSume they need bearing work, it's not too bad usually. If the impeller shaft can be deflected AT ALL have it rebuilt just to be safe. They may have a used blower or two at the shop, should I ask about those? It's a head unit only tho' most likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted July 2, 2000 Share Posted July 2, 2000 SpenceZ, the 60-degree 3.4L TT sounds intriguiging but I believe you are underestimating the cost. I do not think you could come close for $3K. For the turbos, I believe a pair of T-25s would fit your needs. The stock GN turbos are readily available but might be overkill. I see you needing to beef up the engine, a new injection system, ECM, two turbos, custom made turbo headers, downpipes and very exotic turbo plumbing. Makes me wonder why you would go that route when the 3.8L turbo already has everything you need? Just seems like you would be reinventing the wheel unless you just have to have a 5-spd. You might reconsider that with a 450hp TT engine. FYI, the GN boys already have a TT kit using the stock turbos. However, when they think TT, they are thinking 600-700hp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 2, 2000 Share Posted July 2, 2000 Scottie..I can see what you are getting at. I think I might be better off with a supercharger. I am planning on replacing the pistons and having the rods worked on...other than that I'm sure the engine can handle the required 400+ hp I'm asking. BLKMGK...think you could send me over a quote on a used Procharger unit when you find out the info??? I think a P600 unit would be more than enough for the HP I'm looking for and I'm not planning on racing any time soon. If it is just a head unit that is just fine since I'm fairly used to doing all custom fab work by now. Thanks SpencZ spencyg@juno.com MonsterZ Cont. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-Dreamer Posted July 2, 2000 Author Share Posted July 2, 2000 WoW! This sure turned into a great thread! SpencZ, custom pistons don't cost an arm or leg, remember you only need six! As for the Aluminum block, 3 Grand is a lot of money just to save 47lbs! Th 3.4 iron block should be plenty strong and lite enough. While Twin Turbo's would be KILLER, it would also spell BIG DOLLARS. Like Scottie said, if you want to use a stick you're better off with a supercharger. BLKMGK, ask your friend what the P600B with the 12 rib pulley and all the trimmings would cost and does he sell the intercoolers also. John Scott, thanks for the great input. Ok folks, lets keep it coming and see how far we can take this. Mark ------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Scott Posted July 2, 2000 Share Posted July 2, 2000 BLKMGK's comments are good about the cogged belt issue. Not for the street. The flywheel effect of the impeller needs the slippage of a ribbed belt when shutting off at high RPMs. Good for race units, roots type blowers. The P600B will handle/flow, as ATI claims up to 800hp. This of course is starting with a healthy V8. I can attest to the 600Bs reliability. Its worked flawlessly for 5 abusive years. If you want good HP #s from a V6 you'll need much more than the 10 lbs of boost that BLKMGK runs. 10 psi from a big 1200 compressor can make lots of hp. (fire hose, garden hose comparison) For the 3.4, or 4.3 for that matter, you won't start getting good hp (in my opinion) until you reach the 14-15 +psi range. This gives you the roughly 100% increase in HP. A low compression V6 doesn't make much hp at any rpms. For high boost you have to have forged pistons @ about $37.00 a piece.(TRW). Much over this and you need intercooling. Consider this a necessity in your build sheet. Hot air will not make hp, just high boost #s. Also get the proflo relief valve. This will let of pressure when you don't need it. Shutting off at high rpm can be hard on the compressor, bend throttle shafts, and further heat up the air mixture. Also figure on a custom grind cam. Off the shelf "performance" cams will have too tight lobe seperation angles resulting in high cylinder pressures, i.e. detonation. 114 degree is about perfect for the V6. This also gives much better top end, a feature you need with small displacement supercharging. Spend lots of $$ on the bottom end of the engine. Oiling/rods/crankshaft prep/balancing/etc. You're cranking v8 like #s through a smaller assembly. As you can see there is more $$ involved than just buying a supercharger and bolting it on. For those of you who haven't driven in a high boost v6 you have a strong but not overwhelming launch, (good for light Zs) say above 2000 rpm, then its explosive to redline. Get a rev limiter! There will be no watching the tach/boost guage until you get the hang of it. I still can't in 1st! Expect a peaky hp/ torque curve. You have to pick your gears a little more carefully when engaging in road wars. Putzing around below boost is easy on components and gets GREAT milage. 25+. Passes emmissions easily. I think it makes driving more interesting. Once again I'll say for endless $$ supply a turbo/twin T would be the superior hp maker, but the supercharger is still a great power adder. When one of you guys puts a 14 psi unit on a big v8, invite me to the party! JS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 2, 2000 Share Posted July 2, 2000 Great Info John. I am thinking that I'll run probably 8:1 compression so the engine isn't a dog around town. I am definately considering intercooling as a priority as well as forged pistons. I'm considering around 15-18 lbs of boost (after the intercooler) to be the ballpark figure for the hp I'm looking for...do you agree?? As soon as I sell my stroker components the 3.4 will be in the "mail". I guess I will need to swap out the 3:1 gears in the ford 9" for something a little shorter (say...4.2:1??) because of the 2.66 1st gear in the T56. Man...I'm excited!! SpencZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RON JONES Posted July 2, 2000 Share Posted July 2, 2000 Even though I,m not involved in this thread,I am realy enjoying the great reading! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-Dreamer Posted July 2, 2000 Author Share Posted July 2, 2000 Hey John Scott, The crank in your 4.3 is it forged? What type of prep do you recommend? A new cast factory crank should handle up to 7000 RPM less rotating mass and all. I know the sprint car boys rev up to 8000! But their using forged units. I agree with you that the bottom end should be as strong as possible, no penny-pinching. ------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted July 3, 2000 Share Posted July 3, 2000 Great thread, folks!!!! Spence, before you run out and buy a lower final drive ratio, carefully reasearch what you need for a force-induction engine. Unlike a NA engine, a boosted engine will perform better when it spends its time building boost not rushing to the redline. Scottie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Scott Posted July 3, 2000 Share Posted July 3, 2000 Spence, According to ATI, your 8:1 comp. will let you run about 14 psi MAX w/o intercooling. Since you are going to intercool it you will have a "buffer" to around 22 psi. These would be max on pump gas. Z.D. As Ron suggested in an earlier post,1st get your crank magnafluxed. This will be the starting point for a good or trashed crank. Deburring helps eliminate stress risers, check for straightness, find a really good machinist to prepare it to nominal specs. Cross drill it for high rpm oiling. Lead in grooves can be put in journals if you'll see sustained 7500+ The Chev. Power manual has this in the crankshaft prep. section. Get a really good oil pump that supplies about 65-80 psi at operating speeds. Make sure your pick up tube is tack welded to the pump and sits just off the pan bottom. I had all this done, but the lead in grooves. I didn't plan on too many 7000+ ventures. My rods were prepared as to chevy manual with the good ARP fasteners. Polished, profiled, shot peened, maged, etc. Couldn't afford the raw cast forged crank. But the stock with 4bolt upgrade is pretty strong. 7000 isn't that high for a small V6. A good bottom end will help all the other facors of high loads on the ricip. assem. Your valve train has lots to do with potential RPMs. Looks like the 60 degree has avil. 4 bolts. If there is a forged crank I'm sure it would be money well spent. Some good reading in the Chev. power catalog. Also to note, make sure your heads and deck surface are dead flat and use premium head gaskets. High boosts are notorious for blowing these. I had one bad experience, but had heads resurfaced and went to the high $$ gaskets. Good for years now. Lastley, spend the extra for positive seals on your valve stems(guides) The stock umbrella wiper rings won't cut it. Usually requires guide machining, but keeps detonating oil out of the chambers. This is bad for boosted engines. The 60 degree has my interest pumped up now too. sounds like a winning combo. JS [This message has been edited by John Scott (edited July 03, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-Dreamer Posted July 4, 2000 Author Share Posted July 4, 2000 Hey John Scott and BLKMGK, Is it possible to run twin Prochargers... Couldn't resist the insanity... Mark ------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-Dreamer Posted July 4, 2000 Author Share Posted July 4, 2000 Hey SpencZ, In addition to the weight savings you'll get with the 3.4 V6. Look into using a WC T-5 like Jim Biondo uses in his 565+ HP sbc Z, built by Liberty Gears. It weighs 75lbs vs. 125lbs for the T-56. Thats a 50lb. savings! and it can be had with a over-driven 5th gear. See the Transmission/T-5,Tremec or T-56 area. P.S. It's cheaper too! Mark ------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Scott Posted July 5, 2000 Share Posted July 5, 2000 ZD, you could theoretically run two prochargers, but why? Remember these boost linearly with rpms. They make compressors that can make 12-1500 hp. I guess the reasoning with twin turbos is that you can run smaller housings with faster spooling. ?? JS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted July 6, 2000 Share Posted July 6, 2000 correct. Twin turbos are done so that you can have high airflow and fast spool time. Twin T25s on my 302 got me boost by about 1800RPMs and full boost (10lbs) by about 3-4K. Awesome! Twin superchargers HAVE been done in the past. I've seen it done with Vortechs and the result was a nightmare if you ask anyone involved with the project. Belt routing and issues with the crank pulley actually pulling the two superchargers inward tossing belts caused great havoc. The only reason to even consider two belt driven blowers is to move twice as much air and these days at least three companies make blowers that will move more air than you can use. Take a gander at the Paxton Novi, Vortech Mondo, and ATI D3 series. I actually know someone running a D3M (think that's it) and the gear drive on it is near deafening but it will make 20+lbs of boost on a 347 stroker Ford! That's with a box intake, good heads, and sheetmetal ATI intercooler. It's not tuned yet but it's up over 500hp and climbing - very scary. Put that kind of boost into a SBC and it'll make as much power I'm sure. Why would you want the hassles of two? Trust me, it's not needed.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-Dreamer Posted July 6, 2000 Author Share Posted July 6, 2000 Folks, I was just kidding about Twin ProChargers! Couldn't resist the insanity! Since I'm not building a drag car there will be no need for a automatic=(people who can't shift) and I'm going lite weight remember? BLKMGK, do you think the D-series or the P-series ProCharger would be best for a 3.4 V6 SFI 5 speed? Producing boost with no load would be great! John Scott, you're thoughts are welcome also. Mark ------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted July 6, 2000 Share Posted July 6, 2000 Well blast. I made a couple of updates and at least a post or two while out of town that aren't here (sigh). First - be aware ProCharger has a new blower that might be interesting - it's oiless! No hole in the oil pan - woohoo! Like the old Paxton it has to have it's lube changed occasionally but still that's cool. Now if th eblower dies or the motor dies metal from one doesn't mix with the other - this is a GOOD thing. I'll try to get prices in the next day or so - am now home. Am not sure any used blowers are lying around the shop but I'll ask. Rear gears - I went from 3.08 to 3.73. to 3.27 in my Mustang when it was turbocharged. 3.73s actually were too much and I'd bump the rev limiter in 4th going down the track! That sucker pulled 118mph no problem in the quarter - 3.27 gears were MUCH better. Not sure how a blower car will react but the turbo cars certainly liked having something to push against. The 3rd gear charge would pin you to the seat and really take off - it was awesome. Given a choice I like turbos better BTW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted July 7, 2000 Share Posted July 7, 2000 Okay, I got some prices... $1750-$1800 for a SBC kit, no intercooler, for a carb not EFI. Add about $250-300 for the new oiless blower. At this present time no used blowers are hanging around the shop but several of the new oiless blowers went out the door today - these are selling like hotcakes. Someone was asking about a spring loaded idler. No concrete answer as they apparently vary the price depending on which kit it's being used for. Prices can range as high as $200+ for this. Apparently depending on the kit it will come with new blower brackets! Need to know exactly what's being used in order to best price this. As for the V6 blower. Well, ask ATI. Seriously, they know their blowers best. My opinion would be that either a P600 or one of the smaller D series would be fine. The CFM will be sized to the HP you wish to run anyway as no matter the engine it will take about the same amount of air to make a certain amount of HP (shrug). They may even have a kit just for that motor - worth asking about! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Scott Posted July 7, 2000 Share Posted July 7, 2000 Yep, time to call ATI. Catch them early while the tech guys are fresh because they get a ton of calls in a day. 913-338-2886. I'd bet the 600b will give you all the boost you can use. See what they say. JS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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