Guest Anonymous Posted June 19, 2001 Share Posted June 19, 2001 I read some posts from a while back that talked about a water to air intercooler you guys were making. Was this finished and was the results good? Last night I designed one that would sit on top of the intake manifold. The intake (from turbo) would dump into it from the front and the exchanger would be about an inch below. Below the exchange would a tapper/funnel down to the intake opening. The exchanger would be 6"X9"X1". I would run a pump to another exchanger in front of the Roadster. Are my thoughts on this about right? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted June 19, 2001 Share Posted June 19, 2001 240Z Turbo and I partnered up to buy 2 A-W cores. Unfortunately, we found out they were not A-W cores and each core individually would not make a good A-A. However, together they would make an awesome A-A which is the one you see posted a couple days ago by 240Z Turbo and I ended up taking his old A-A unit. I still have plans for one when I get over 500hp, whenever that is. Your idea is fine as long as you can get a decent heat exchanger in the system. You might look into the Ford A-W unit to see if it is adaptable or even one from the Sy/TY. IMO, unless you plan on getting a really efficient A-W core, w/o ice, I am not sure you will see enough benefit in street driving to offset the complexity. Where it really shines is at the track when you can fill a reservoir with ice and get the inlet charge below ambient. One thing I had planned to do and you might consider, is to to put a fan on the heat exchanger and wire the system up so that with the engine off, you can run the pump at a low speed with the fan on. This would circulate the liquid through the system, cooling it down and reducing heat soak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 19, 2001 Share Posted June 19, 2001 Very good advice Scottie! How can I tell if the core is the efficient design? In mags like Summit, they have the basic tube/fin design and also the B&M design. I would think the tube/fin design is not efficient, but how about the B&M design? Good idea about keeping the fan and pump on. I could wire in a switch and label it "Intercooler" - that would draw questions So, is alcohol injection better for the street? Thanks Phil PS - Scottie how much HP are you getting now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 19, 2001 Share Posted June 19, 2001 Perhaps this is a dumb idea, but has anyone even used a freon/R134a evaporator mounted in the intake of a turbo system and used the a small like sanden A/C unit to cool the charge? The pumps cost between 5-8 horsepower, but wouldn't it make enough temperature difference to offset the parasitic horsepower loss? Maybe this is crazy, but I was thinking it would produce cold air even in high heat? I know in a drag only car perhaps weight would be the consideration and overheating I suppose would be a concern, but for a street/strip car? Oh well, just throwin' it out there, any opinions? Regards, Lone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted June 19, 2001 Share Posted June 19, 2001 I've seen articles on th efreon type setup and at least one Cobra kit car out there was supposed to have one on it - with a 2.4 turbo of all things. As for the A/W thing. I think this isn't bad for the stret at all so long as it's got a decent radiator for it. I water cooled the CPU in my computer awhile back (I ovreclock everything!) and ofund that after a day my several gallons of water ould get REAL warm. I was running it through a small trans cooler but still it got hot. So, I hooked up a small fan to it - WOW what a difference! what I learned was that airflow was VERY important over the device you want to cool the water. Chances are an A/W cooler won't ever get the water down to ambient but the closer you can get it down there the better. Water removes heat FAR better than air does, cool the water - maybe with Lone's freon idea - and the A/W cooler will work very well indeed. Even if you don't get the intake charge to ambiant if th eboost is high enough it won't be that big a deal since an A/A cooler migh be even less effective. Make sense? You'd really need to sit down, do some math, and figure out just how big a tank you'd need to do this right for street driving. BTW - the new Lightnings have a BIGGER tank this year than last and a bigger intercooler core too. Hrm! Think maybe they learned something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted June 19, 2001 Share Posted June 19, 2001 There are 2 cores in discussion here. For the I/C, I believe for what you are doing, the Ford unit is efficient enough, readily available and since it already sits on top of the engine, might work for you with minor mods. The other core is the heat exchanger and by the mere mention of B&M, I assume you are considering a trans cooler and that will not work. Trans cooler flow is too restrictive to be efficient and has little or no extra capacity. I was thinking about a small import radiator. I have never dynoed my car and prefer to use the drag strip timeslip to measure my progress, give me more time to tune rather than a short dyno window and besides, I have more fun at the track . There are several formulas that calculate RWHP based on ET or MPH and weight. Note I said OR. I use one that takes into account the ET & MPH & weight. It might not be the best but by using just that one, I can consistently compare my progress and compare it to other cars unlike comparing HP from different dynos. Having said all of that, with a weight of 2820lbs (w/me) and a best of 11.25 @ 121.6, the formula says 407RWHP and if you use the popular formulas to calculate torque, it says 503 lb/ft. Car has actually best ET of 11.20 and MPH of 122.5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 19, 2001 Share Posted June 19, 2001 Went through my Turbochargers book at lunch. There is a picture of a dual turbo 327 Chevy in a Maserati. In the caption it says "used a Cheverolet heater core as an intercooler". So, can I use a small heater core out of an import as the I/C and a large one with fan (or small radiator) for the heat exchanger? You say Ford - as in Lighting pick-up? I knew this was the right place for my tech questions - you guys even I/C computers!!! 400 HP very nice!! In my 2000 pound Roadster it may be too much - I would be happy with 250 to 300. Phil [ June 19, 2001: Message edited by: SPL311 ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavyZ Posted June 19, 2001 Share Posted June 19, 2001 Lone's idea of a freon based cooler is great, but you would never want one directly over the intake manifold as SPL311 wants to do. Why? Condensation!!! You'd have dripping water going into the cylinders and that's not exactly desireable. Now, if one would move that intercooler just off to the side.... David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240Z Turbo Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 There was an articly of a twin-turbocharged dually that used the AC system to cool the intake charge to the TB. It allowed the truck to maintain about 70deg charge temps while making a full run in the desert. The complexity makes it unattractive, but the benefits most likely exist. However, if you were showing bang for the buck it is probably not worth the effort. With a big enough reservoir an air-water setup will outdo an air-air setup for the street as far as cooling goes, but you do have the added complexity of the system and the additional weight. A properly sized air-air will work very well even in the summer months. If you are looking for #'s, I think you can probably maintain intake temps in the 100-110F range with an air-water on the street without using ice. A comperable air-air setup will probably yield atleast 10-20F higher intake temps. This is only off the top of my head from what I remember seeing. Anyway, the debate goes! Here is the pic of the supposed air-water cores Scottie and I purchased! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 FWIW I've got an A/A intercooler in my garage from my twin turbo 302. At WOT that sucker would see temps at near ambient! I'm talking something like 95degrees on a hot Summer day. Make it big enough and it'll really suck some heat from the air. Not sure I'd use a heater core for an intercooler. Yeah, it might work but geez it wouldn't be terribly effective. And don't even think about a trans cooler as the "radiator". Grab the radiator out of a Sprint or something - tiniest thing you've ever seen! (lol) The new Lightning trucks have interesting setups, maybe use the pump from one of their systems since you know darned well it should work forever out of an OEM setup. Many pumps aren't made to go full duty like that one must be.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 The A/C-based I/C is a great idea IF you already have A/C. Here is a company that developed one for the turbo Buick cars and the Sy/Ty. http://coolflow.com/prod1.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240Z Turbo Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 For some reason I really like that setup! Too bad my cars have almost never had A/C! DOH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Shasteen Posted August 13, 2001 Share Posted August 13, 2001 Ahhh, Turbo's Turbo's Turbo's...its the last frontier. I'm new to turbo's but I'm learning fast; and have found a whole new respect for those wascally wabbits called turbo's. I've since taken Hugh MacInnes calculations for turbo selection & completed formatting those calculations on Excel along w/the A/A IC's effectiveness/Temp Drops. Scottie, I've input your 231/6 @ 5500rpm's w/.70% Comp.Effeciency along w/an A/A IC of 70% Effectiveness at 28" of HG on a 110*F Florida Day...,those #'s indicated the charge air at the Intake Manifold: A) w/o the IC: 1) 218*F w/7lbs Boost...1.7 Pressure Ratio 2) 291*F w/13lbs Boost..1.9 Pressure Ratio 3) 324*F w/16lbs Boost..2.2 Pressure Ratio The Charge Air Temp at the Intake Manifold w/the IC having the 70% Effectiveness Rating would be: With the IC of 70% Effectiveness 1) 142*F w/7lbs Boost & 1.7 Pressure Ratio 2) 164*F w/13lbs Boost & 1.9 Press.Ratio 3) 174*F w/16lbs Boost & 2.2 Press.Ratio 1st Question: after looking at all these #'s is how does one take advantage of the "Effectiveness Rating" of a cooler...does it all depend on location or does one simply push "Ram Air" thru the IC w/a fan? I also like the A/C Comp. idea mentioned earlier. 2nd Question: What effect (good or bad) does an IC have on an engine when the Winter Temp's hit, say near or below freezing temp's? If the effectiveness rating of the IC is to high (say 70%) & works well...what effect would that have on the intake air; do the pressure drops merely eualize & the intake manifold air isnt really effected? Seems like there are always more questions than answers! Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner learning Turbo's) [ August 12, 2001: Message edited by: Kevin Shasteen ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Shasteen Posted August 13, 2001 Share Posted August 13, 2001 BTW: FWIW...anyone reading Hugh MacInnes's book needs to realize he has a typo (at least on my book) on page 16 on "Table 1" where he first discusses the "Ideal Temp Rise". The process for Ideal Temp Rise is to use the Pressure Drop...lets say 1.5 & convert it in an equation like so: 1.5^.283-1 = .121 The .121 now becomes the Ideal Temp Rise. In the Table 1 on page 16 someone accidentally transposed the exponent .283 & typed it as .238! Took me awhile to figure out why my calculations were off...after re-reading his instructions I realized his table at the back of the book had the "Press.Ratio^.283-1" and realized either he or his publisher made a mistake...guess even the pro's are prone to typo's; glad to know I'm not the only one that makes mistakes. Kevin, (Yes,Still an Inliner) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 Hi guys, In case anyone's looking for intercoolers, or tube and fin cores, you can get stuff pretty cheap from K&J Industries here in Brisbane, Australia. The value of our dollar (dont get me started, damn politics) must make it fairly competitive to US ppl. I got quoted $290US for a 600x300x73mm tube and fin core, and paid $450US for my 560x300x73mm cored intercooler in my 240. You can see it at members.optushome.com.au/charleswilliams/Progress.htm, and there are some photos of the core's construction at www.are.com.au Anyway, just in case you're looking for something cheap. rbZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennysgreen280zt Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 This may be a totally stupid question, but can you make and air/air core into an air/water core by welding a "tank" around the air/air core , then just flow water through it?? If i am totally off base here please let me know!!! laterz ~Kenny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 Kenny, the answer to your question is yes, but it does not make sense to do it if the air/air I/C does not have adequate flow capacity to begin with. Since water has a specific heat value 4 times that of air, the A-W core does not have to be as large but it must still have adequate flow. A complet A-W system would also have a small radiator mounted in the airstream to dissipate the heat absorbed by the water from the I/C and of course, a pump to circulate the water. Drag racers then add another component that would flow the water through ice before it gets back to the core or have the tank surrounding the core wide enough to be packed with ice. Obviously it is more complex and probably not advantageous for a regular street car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 Then wouldn't it make sense to use some sort of a/c system to replace the ice. Maybe use something similar to those ac/dc plug in refrigerators that you plug into your lighter. YOu would then need to adapt the heat exchange elements into tank that water flow through then through the a-w system then back out through the water radiator to pre-cool the liquid then it would flow back the the water cooling tank with the refer then back through the A-w unite. I think I got it hope you all get the flow. I go sort of goofy when I flow on a tangent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAW Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 An A/C system compresses gaseous freon which changes state to liquid and creates heat into the freon which is radiated off to air by the condensor (I think; correct me if wrong)...the freon passes through an expansion valve, the resultant pressure drop causes temp drop in the evaporator and the aluminum evaporator absorbs heat from its surrounding air (transferring it across the aluminum). This source of cold air could be used to accelerate the heat transfer of an air-air intercooler, but heat is going air-to-aluminum-to-aluminum-to-freon. I'm wonderring if there's a more efficient/effective way of transferring the intercooler heat using a freon medium...it seems like using an evaporative-type element built inside of an air box could cause a lot of restriction and disruption to airflow if it were large enough to be effective in any volume. What if instead, an encasement box were constructed closely around an existing traditional air-air intercooler core such that the box itself is the vessel into which an expansion valve introduces freon onto one side of the intercooler fins (like a very flat end tank for freon), and the suction port for the freon is in another plate-like freon end tank on the opposite side of the intercooler fins. This system would allow good airflow for the induction charge while eliminating one (air-aluminum)thermal interface. This may already be what's being discussed vs chilled air across a conventional IC; but regardless, a question for this system would be: if a leak springs in the IC, what would freon do when it goes into the combustion chamber?? DAW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAW Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 ...OK, so then you place the assembly of air-to-freon intercooler into a bath of something, maybe some sort of gel of a material with a specific heat value that soaks up a ton of thermal energy without itself increasing its own temp too much, taking up much space, or being corrosive; something that absorbs the heat and transfers it to it's finned aluminum case which radiates it into ambient temp air (quickly if the car is in motion or has a fan). DAW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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