Guest thinkmonkey Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 Even so, we're talking about sub 2 liter engines that cannot make respectable power on junkyard parts, these things need forced induction or expensive parts to sustain extremely high revs. And remember, they are front wheel drive. I just find it counterproductive to use a platform that is inheritly flawed by design, because it was made for economy not performance. I will give honda respect for it's FWD handling dynamics which are generally crisp and responsive. -David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ON3GO Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 oh man im on the same boat as you.. I HATE HONDAS!.... i give the fast street ones respect but i just dont like FWD cars in the 1st place.. but in some cases like my friends they were stuck with that car for money reasons and insurence reasons... they wanted something fast, didnt have alot of money and had to work with what they had.. both of them built there cars with nothing but used parts, junkyard parts, or custom stuff they made.. one ran a 12.6 on drag radials, other is running faster i think.. not sure on exact time. both have turbos on them. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moridin Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 LSD plays a big role in drag times of FWD cars if I recall. The car is literally clawing for traction up front, where a RWD car will put its weight back to help give traction (Just reiterating comon knowledge I guess; or at least common to this forum). Inherently flawed for what? For drag racing yes, but not so for other areas. FWD vehicles don't have to worry about a driveshaft, rear-end, and all the other goodies of a RWD, so there is less to worry about and package in that respect. Anyway, my point is that the Honda's are packaged well and the old ones are pretty light, making it a good starting point for someone with little money and looking for reliability. My motor in my hatch has 145,000 miles and is still going strong. I don't even think the clutch has ever been replaced (Probably because it is only making 80HP). I just ordered a B16A1 with a LSD tranny to swap in. If I ever get it down to the drag strip, I'll report the times. Truthfully, the swap is so I can get on the freeway without having a heart attack, because I have no power to merge at speed. I guess the Spoon stuff has already been explained. They make neat things for the little Honda motors. With a few of their valvetrain components (Mugen, Skunk2, and others make the same things, just at differing qualities) the little Honda motors can rev sky high. It's a bit like a driving a motorcycle with four wheels as opposed to riding a two-wheeler. It just won't be as fast or put you in as much trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigWhyteDude Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 you know i really dont understand why ppl put park bench wings on the back of front wheel drive cars....... There are only two hondas that i would gladly drive the S2000 and the NSX. That is if i could fit into the s2000 which i cant sucks for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thinkmonkey Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 Well, even real FWD road race cars have wings on the back, but that is to smooth out airflow over the trunk area, mostly to lower drag and avoid lift, and thereby the risk of high speed oversteer. The stock 'winglet' that comes on some honda civics actually lowers the drag coefficient by .01 -David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HIWAY ONE Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 100 HP per liter on a stock engine isn't half bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S30Z Bushido Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Spoon is fairly 'ricey' in my eyes when you consider that Honda only has two real tuner cars' date=' the S2000 and NSX (a Honda in Japan) which is not what US spoonboys dream about. I can't believe that these idiot Honda boys in my area actually take the time and to swap in an N/A 1.6 liter engine that drives the front wheels, only to run high 15's. 12 second Honda's cost around 20 grand to build, rediculous. -David[/quote'] ignorance is bliss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S30Z Bushido Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 The Spoon engine assembly is a new longblock that is balanced, blueprinted, and assembled by Spoon. The B18C-R comprises stock Honda internals with the addition of a Spoon 2 piece headgasket for slightly higher compression and a Spoon oil pump for improved oil flow. The pistons, connecting rods, and crankshaft are balanced to within 0.1g accuracy, resulting in smoother power delivery, improved mid to high range power, and high rpm stability. Combustion chamber capacity variance is reduced to under 0.2cc and everything is torqued exactly to spec. The compression ratio of this engine is 11.3:1. Peak power output is 200hp at the flywheel. This engine is ideal for endurance racing such as FIA Group N where stock component engines are required. spoon is definetly not a "rice" company, they produce some very nice parts, some examples: carbon kevlar bucket, weighs 5.7kg. 15inch 4 x 100 45 offset. Ultra-lightweight at a mere 8.5lbs and really nice aero parts for hondas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thinkmonkey Posted September 10, 2003 Share Posted September 10, 2003 Spoon is fairly 'ricey' in my eyes when you consider that Honda only has two real tuner cars' date=' the S2000 and NSX (a Honda in Japan) which is not what US spoonboys dream about. I can't believe that these idiot Honda boys in my area actually take the time and to swap in an N/A 1.6 liter engine that drives the front wheels, only to run high 15's. 12 second Honda's cost around 20 grand to build, rediculous. -David[/quote'] ignorance is bliss. Tell me this: If your goal is to run the quarter mile, why start with a small displacement FWD car? I am impressed that the spoon engine is able to make motorcycle like HP/Displacement ratios, which would go really well in a MR chassis. The problem is that it also makes motorcycle like torque, and ends up driving the front wheels. My quarter mile calculations for a 200hp 2000lb setup is in the mid 13's andways. Besides, how much does that spoon motor cost anyways? $4k by itself? -David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ON3GO Posted September 10, 2003 Share Posted September 10, 2003 thinkmonkey.. if you know what spoon is about then you know it wants NOTHING to do with the 1/4th... the company builds this very fast, and awesome handling cars for REAL racing. they dont care about 60-foot times, or 0-60mph times, heck those cars really never stop to a full and take off again. its all about light weight, handling, and high revs...... and they do it well, very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moridin Posted September 10, 2003 Share Posted September 10, 2003 I think your questioning of how fast these cars go in a straight line is typical of the automotive society in America. Not to say it is good or bad, but just the way it is. Unfortunately, I'm a road race fan, yet road racing is not nearly as big as oval track and the 1/4 mile. Personally, I believe there is much more skill when the wheel has to turn, and not just left. Like ON3GO said, these motors are made for a road course. The high revs help to exctract more power out of smaller displacement (that's why Formula 1 motors rev so high) and be able to hold a gear a little longer. Why people go and drag the FWD cars. I guess its a challenge. It's defying the natural way of things. As a result, we are getting some performance out of economy cars i.e. Ford Focus, Toyota Celica GTS, Dodge Neon SRT-4, and so on. If all racers wanted to have the fastest dragster (not relative to class), then every drag racer would have a rail car with a huge motor. The same thing holds true to why SCCA spec Miata racing is doing really well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auxilary Posted September 10, 2003 Share Posted September 10, 2003 ignorance is bliss. Tell me this: If your goal is to run the quarter mile' date=' why start with a small displacement FWD car? I am impressed that the spoon engine is able to make motorcycle like HP/Displacement ratios, which would go really well in a MR chassis. The problem is that it also makes motorcycle like torque, and ends up driving the front wheels. My quarter mile calculations for a 200hp 2000lb setup is in the mid 13's andways. Besides, how much does that spoon motor cost anyways? $4k by itself? -David[/quote'] Why drag race a 4000lb superbird? why drop a 350 sbc into a Z? not everyone drag races a civic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted September 10, 2003 Share Posted September 10, 2003 Tell me this: If your goal is to run the quarter mile, why start with a small displacement FWD car? Tell me this: If your goal is to climb a mountain, why not just take a helicopter to the top? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thinkmonkey Posted September 10, 2003 Share Posted September 10, 2003 Well, helicopters don't have an effective ceiling to land on the top of a mountain, especially if you throw in drafts up or down the mountains, but I get your point. I am not big on drag racing or oval racing, I find it boring. I was just at the Vancouver Indy Street Race in July, which is my favorite kind of race because you get to be right up by the action, as opposed to a proper road course. This last weekend I was at the SCCA Wild West Pro Rally. This weekend I'll be at the SCCA races at Pacific Raceways (formerly SIR). Never been to a drag race, sadly I've been to a short track race at Monroe Raceways before my 'car days.' It was entertaining to watch the Honda guys in Vancouver take turn one and see their back right wheels lift into the air and lock up. But, you could also see that they had to fight with their cars when they tried to put the power down pulling out of the tight corners. Most of them had dialed out the understeer, but you can't escape the traction issues you face with FWD. God (or at least BMW) intended for cars to be front engine, rear wheel drive because of the balance it offers, especially in a real race. This is my only real issue with Honda's as performance cars. I do LOVE how the S2000 drives and how small the wheel and shifter are to give you that snick snick feel. Something that blows my mind though is how those pinkish-orange Acura Integra's are able to beat the BMW's in the "I can't remember the name of that series." I do respects works teams that are racing FWD cars because that is what their manufacturer produces, but it does not make sense to me to CHOOSE a one to race for reasons other than sponsorship. But what do I know, my on track time is pretty limited. Some autocross in a 240SX, and around Firebird IR's tracks in an STI. Maybe I'll have to find a spoon fed civic to whip around, as long as they don't know that I'm really batman... -David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ON3GO Posted September 10, 2003 Share Posted September 10, 2003 those Real Time (i think thats what there called) intergras are awesome cars, and the new RT RSX's are even faster and nicer... thats ok, cuz now the sentra SER is in that league its OVER! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thinkmonkey Posted September 10, 2003 Share Posted September 10, 2003 And why will the sentra's be more competitive than the Integra's? 2.5 liters. Big block by 4 cylinder standards. -David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ON3GO Posted September 10, 2003 Share Posted September 10, 2003 no.. they have the Intergras wining driver... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug71zt Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Well, helicopters don't have an effective ceiling to land on the top of a mountain, especially if you throw in drafts up or down the mountains, but I get your point. Hmm - Bell 212 - service ceiling - 20,000 ft. Delivers heliskiers to 10,000 ft and above, 10 at a time, 120+ times a day. World helicopter altitude record 42,820 ft. - Aerospatiale Lama - also world's highest autorotation - It was still climbing when it ran out of fuel. I've personally worked with a Bell 205B (Huey II) doing external load work at 15,000 to 18,000ft in sight of K2. You can see that sucker for a looong way. If you want to work a helicopter in the mountains - Hire a Canadian company Methinks you should stick to what you know... Cheers - Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thinkmonkey Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 I always wondered how high a helicopter could go. "Methinks you should stick to what you know... " That's not very nice. -David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest storm280z Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 a spoon motor in as high reving/ highly tunned / n/a track motor that they use in japan. spoon is a tunner that specalizes in honda tunning an actually they are quote big in the honda world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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