Best way to get v-8 w/ 350+hp

[pparaska]

Jack. back many moons ago when I was in high school, I had a 70-1/2 Camaro that I rebuilt a 327/300 for. It had the 462 camel humps with 1.94/1.50 valves. Since this was around 1978, those old heads were old, but there wasn't much else out there that was affordable (Bowtie heads, etc.) So they went back on the engine, along with the stock pistons (engine just needed a hone).

 

I also went for the 151 (327/350) cam. Hydraulic like you say. 306 adv duration, 222 @.050, .447 lift. This was on the advice of a speedshop owner that should have known better, even back then. The car had a stock T400 converter and 3.08:1 gears. To say it was a dog at low speed was an understatement. As it got to 30mph in 1st, it would all the sudden come on the cam. Holding it in 1st with that trans meant the safety upshift came banging in at around 5700 rpm. Blew quite a few u-joints that way. Talk about a horrible match of cam, converter, gears! Young and ignorant I was. But yes, a new designed cam from that era (late 70s) was installed after 3 or 4000 miles (it was drinking gas I couldn't afford). The cam was a Comp RV cam of some sort. Mild, but MUCH more low end, and it didn't really run out of breathe until 5500-6000.

 

That old 151 cam was a big mistake, even if I had the "right" converter and gears. An old design that should have been shelved, but Manley was still making and selling it. I learned the lesson.

 

Even back in 1978, the camel hump heads were not that great, but for someone on a budget, the only choice. Now, it makes no sense unless you are entirely into nostalgia or doing a resto.

 

Yeah, old habits die hard. Even 14 years ago when I first built the 327 that's in my Z, I went with the camel hump heads. At that point, a guy in another speedshop (who tested and touched up my Canfields) was telling me to go aftermarket Aluminum. But back then that seemed expensive. I guess my stubbornness may pay off when I unload the camel humps on Ebay to some nostalgia freak.

 

dladow:

-My complete shortblock for the 406 cost me $1650!

Starting with the builder's standard bore 509 casting 400 engine block, a new Scat 9000 crank, new 6" I-beam rods w/ ARP bolts, Probe SRS forged pistons, standard rings (oversized and gapped), ARP main studs, King bearings, it was zero decked, blueprinted (with all build tolerances recorded and provided), balanced to within 1 gram, resulting in a 20-25 ft-lb turning torque for the assembly.

 

-Canfield 215cc heads fully assembled by Canfield were $1250.

 

-Cam Motion low-lash solid roller cam, Isky Red Zone lifters, matched springs, cups and retainers, Cloyes timing set, $1070 shipped.

 

-I have a collection of intakes (Holley dual plane, Vic Jr., Offy CrossRam, Hilborn stack injector that needs to be converted), probably start off with the Vic Jr. I'll use the Fluidampr and flywheel off the 327 (since the 406 is was put together with light pistons and crank to get an internal balanced setup). So add those up if you had to buy them and your looking at maybe another $700.

 

Add gaskets, oilpan, oil pump, carb (or TBI), etc, another $500 maybe. (I'll steal that off the 327).

 

Hmm. That's about $5000. Not cheap, but not insane either. I could have saved money by buying the heads with the springs, etc. I needed for the roller, but when I bought them, I was planning on the Crane 114681 cam.

 

And Desktop Dyno is actually predicting more than 500/500 hp/lb-ft. I was just being conservative.

 

All from a 50+ year old "designed" pushrod piece of boat anchor.

Note that I spent the large portion of the money on the HEADS and VALVETRAIN. That's where the really difference are.

[jack46]

But back then that seemed expensive. I guess my stubbornness may pay off when I unload the camel humps on Ebay to some nostalgia freak.

 

Boy true words, my stubbornest or 'cheap' button has cost me so much. Always sounds expensive $1000 for aluminum heads? I don't need that...They are never cheaper next time around are they. They say the most common mistake is too big of a cam, I think it is thinking we won't want to go bigger, and not buying the BEST heads first.

 

Like you said that's where we should concentrate, but instead I think we all try to save a little and end up paying for that mistake. I laughed when you said about intakes, I have a couple cams etc if I could have simply owned up to wanting huge from day one I could have saved some time and some real dollars.

 

Oh well I guess that is why they are always saying live and learn right. And I hate to admit it when I was in High School '151' was high tech! I went in service in 69

[Kevin Shasteen]

Regarding the Camel Hump Heads..if memory serves me correc, they had small intake ports in the 160cc range.

 

In the hands of a skilled head shop their ports could be pushed to the +/-180cc range, but only after spending $1000-2000 dollars.

 

The reason these heads were sought out, in the hay days, is because their smaller ports increased airflow velocity in the ports at a lower rpm range. In those days the Static Compresson Ratio's were higher and the cam durations were excessive. So the higher airflow velocity matched the excessive cam duration: and this matched the smaller displacements and the 116 leaded fuel.

 

The camel hump heads were great for those who wanted to go racing.....30 years ago! They are not that great for performance engines nowadays, as the Cylinder Head, Camshaft, Intake Manifold, Fuel Delivery bar has been raised exponentially with the onslaught of the aftermarker world: and the the auto manufacturers have followed suit.

 

The aftermarket Cam, Cylinder Head, Intake, and Carb mfg's have improved airflow and fuel atomization to such a degree there really is no reason you would want to use the old stuff...unless you got it cheap or you were attempting a 100 point restoration.

 

Dont buy old stock if you can afford the newer stuff.

 

There is nothing wrong with a 327 if that is what you want. The trick is in knowing what you want and how you plan on getting there.

 

Read as much as you can. Things won't make sense to you until you understand how to manage airflow velocity: as in which parts will have what effect to the port pressures and cylinder pressures at any rpm.

 

This is why the SCR to DCR relationship, Cylinder Head Port Volumes to CFM flow at a specific Valve Lift....relative to engine displacement and your level of performance you desire are so important.

 

IMHO you have three choices:

1) Build an old school SBC (carburetor fueled)

2) Buy an old school SBC crate engine (carburetor fueled)

3) Buy an LS1...very streetable and already putting out about 50 more torque/horsepower you were looking for.

 

If you go route #1 you take the risk of not meeting your goal-unless you or someone else knows what they are doing. You stil have the time delay between pulling old motor/trans & installing new motor/trans.

 

#2-3 is basically plug and play. With the same time delay in pulling the old engine/trans and getting the new engine/trans to run).

 

The engine and transmission brackets will cost about the same regardless who you get them from...unless you make your own.

 

I would suggest you read a lot and ask a bunch of questions: then make your educated decision.

 

Kevin,

(Yea,Still an Inliner)

[datsun327]

hey, 71240350z what combo are you ruunning to make those horsepower numbers that you said earlier. i ask b/c im thinking of getting a 327. and i want to make about the same amount of horsepower you are. but just looking for the right combo go get to my goal.

thanks

[Psykovertible]

If you build a any cubic inch small block with the same parts and quality, the horse power will be very close. this big difference will be in the torque. if you don't beleive that, buy desktop dyno and build a vitual motor. you will see that if only the cubes change, the torque will change but hp will stay close.

 

the other reason people like the 327 is hp now. they wind up quicker. if someone here really wants a 327 let me know. i may still have access to a steel crank for a large journal 327.

 

do your homework and dont get the early 327. small jouranl bolts are scary to look at.

 

best bet for a non-gearheaded motor swap...... edelbrock complete crate motor.....quality.....complete....no messing around.

 

jake

[Heavy Z]

the other reason people like the 327 is hp now. they wind up quicker

 

They don't wind up quicker, but they are higher-revving than a 350/383. We kicked this myth around here a while back...all things equal, a 383 will beat a 327 down the track. Higher torque will push it through gears faster and yield a higher et, therefore the 383 revs 'quicker.' The 327 can rev higher however, and with appropriate gearing to match the right cam you can have quite a screamer.

[Pyro]

I think the small journal 327 rods are plenty strong.

 

I have a set in my 350. The racing machine shop did an off-center grind job on the stock 350 crank. In this process, the large journal are machined down on one side of the crank to small journals. This increases the stroke of the crank by 0.070". So the stock 3.48" stroke has been changed to 3.55" which makes a 362 cid @ 0.030" over bore or a 368 cid at 0.060" bore. Finally the tops of the pistons were cut down to make a zero deck block. I didn't ask for this work, but they had one already on the floor

 

I shift at 7,200 to 7,400 rpm and spray a 175 shot of N20. I have been abusing the short block for over ten years now without a rebuild. The engine uses pump gas and does 110 mph in the 1/8 mile and 135 mph in the 1/4 mile.

 

So, I wouldn't worry so much about journal size. Just do a high quality rebuild and put the pedal to the wood.

 

In fact, I have read that small journal engines have less internal friction due to less bearing surface area. But for a street/strip car, it is spliting hairs in my book.