waynekarnes Posted November 21, 2004 Share Posted November 21, 2004 posted this before .. asking about using the taurus fan ... hoping some one has done it ... scarab V8 72 240z. with 4 core brass/copper radiator, no room between engine and radiator to slip in the taurus 2 spd electric fan. has anyone used the 2 core radiator that JTR sells in conjunction with the scarab position engine ? when using the JTR radiator and the scarab motor mounts, is there room for the taurus fan ? there is no way it fits with the radiator i have now. hate to spend the money on JTR radiator and mounting kit, just to find the taurus fan still doesn't fit. some one suggested, the LS1 dual fan set up, placed in front of the radiator as a pusher. haven't seen any pix of this ... thanks, wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zfan Posted November 21, 2004 Share Posted November 21, 2004 I have a 1971 240Z scarab conversion built/converted in 1980. I am running a sbc 383 with the Griffith aluminum radiator that sells for 195.00 bucks in Summit or Jegs. I am running a Taurus 2 speed fan and it is a little tight. I offset the fan a little so that it's fan motor is just to the side of the water pump pulley. I have purchased a half a dozen Taurus fans, not because they were bad but the price (20 bucks) was too good to pass up. I just sell them to friends who needed them. There are two different sized Taurus two speed fans. One is 1.5 inches bigger across and a half an inch deeper/thicker. Thats what may be your problem. I will try to post pictures later today/tonight. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waynekarnes Posted November 21, 2004 Author Share Posted November 21, 2004 Mike, thanks ... we spoke a while back. along with the pix, would you post the part number on the fan you are using ? i bought two of the fans, one from a sable and one from a taurus, different part numbers, but both the same size. the one speed fan is off set a hair from the 2 spd fan, i bought one, not enough off set to make a differnce, still bumps the plus, i checked and the one spd, has less cfm of air movement. took it back to wrecking yard, got a credit. the JTR radiator is 140 bucks, mounting kit is 60. so same price range as the griffin. JTR is about an hour north of me, so i can pick it up. the griffins, at least on line or catalogs, seem to be on the 250 range. how'd you mount your radiator ??? i am not very good at hand crafting, well i can make almost any thing, it'll just look like crap. thanks for the help !!! wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zfan Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 I cannot seem to get the pictures posted. I must be computer retarded. I will try to get my Son to take a look at what I am doing wrong. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waynekarnes Posted November 23, 2004 Author Share Posted November 23, 2004 Mike ... you want to send to my e mail ??? wkarnes#pacbell.net you know to change the # to @ thanks, wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest butlersZ Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 What about using the short style water pump to gain some clearence? I tried the taurus fan and had no luck either until I mounted the short style water pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waynekarnes Posted November 25, 2004 Author Share Posted November 25, 2004 no idea if i have a short or long pump ... i have thought about that ... changing the pump ... but then the belt won't line up to the balancer pulley and the alt. how did you get around that ? i was thinking, of using a short, high volume water pump. supposedly, drops the temps by 5 to 15 degrees. at the same time, i know the coolant has to remain in the radiator, or it doesn't get radiated. no time for the heat exchange, thus engine actually runs hotter ... man, back before i knew any thing about thermodynamic, before i knew any thing about cars. i'd just do stuff and it always seemed to work. now if i do anything like that. it always comes back to bite me ;P anyway , Mike at JTR suggested in long run, i will probably end up getting rid of the four core radiator and money spent on the pump, could have been invested in the lighter more efficient 2 core radiator, and the taurus fan, that he knows works. is there an easy way to tell a long pump from a short, without having em side by side ??? thanks ! wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onovakind67 Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 at the same time, i know the coolant has to remain in the radiator, or it doesn't get radiated. no time for the heat exchange, thus engine actually runs hotter ... No truth to this old wives tale. Radiator efficiency is directly proportional to the volume of water going through it. The hotter the radiator is, the better it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waynekarnes Posted November 27, 2004 Author Share Posted November 27, 2004 i agree with the hotter the radiator is, to a point ... which i'm sure you agree with ... hits a point where it can no longer absorb and transfer heat. the coolant has to remain in the radiator, long enough for heat transfer to take place. as you suggest, most water pumps may not be able to move a volume of water quicker than the proper size radiator can absorb and transfer that heat. still .... i need to know, once mounted, how far back from the pump does the radiator sit from the scarab engine set up. is there room for the taurus 2 spd fan ? i test fit the zirgo fan ... if i offset it, it clears the water pump, but i don't think it's gonna move the air i need .. no shroud. lengthwise, what's the length of a long water pump vs. a short water pump ? if i can get an inch less ( okay bring em on LOL ) it looks like i'd have clearance with my present radiator. is there an issue realigning the belts and alt mounts ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onovakind67 Posted November 28, 2004 Share Posted November 28, 2004 I don't agree at all. The equation for heat transfer is roughly Q = -hA(Ts – T) Q = heat transferred h = transfer coefficient related to the medium A = the area of the radiator Ts = surface temperature of the radiator t = the temperature of the surrounding medium. Note that there are no time constraints or limits to the difference in temperature. The physics state that the greater the temperature difference, the greater the rate of heat transfer. The most efficient your radiator can be is when the water flow and air flow are at the maximum allowed by the system. Since the area and the transfer coefficient are constant, the only way to adjust the efficiency is to regulate the flow of the water and air. We use a thermostat to restrict the flow of water to warm the engine, opening it as the engine heats and if it gets too cool, we close the thermostat. If the engine temperature continues to rise, we use a fan to draw cold air into the radiator. This increases the difference in temperature and cools the engine. People don't seem to have a problem understanding that more air flow means better cooling. Maximum water flow creates the highest difference in temperature across the entire radiator. If the water flow is diminished, the cooler areas of the radiator becom less efficient.. Another effect of high flow rates is turbulence, which will cause the efficiency of the radiator to rise significantly. Tests have shown cooling rate increases of 150-500% when compared to laminar flow. One other misconception is that you need to have cool water coming out of the radiator. The automotive cooling system is a closed system, the longer water stays in the radiator, the longer is stays in the block. The cooler it comes out of the radiator, the hotter it comes out of the block. A uniformly warm block will be less apt to experience detonation than one that has a large temperature gradient. As the coolant approaches its pressure corrected vapor point, it absorbs heat at a slower rate, pockets of steam form and the efficiency is diminished. Stewart Components has a large amount of information on the design of cooling systems. http://www.stewartcomponents.com/Tech_Tips.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waynekarnes Posted November 29, 2004 Author Share Posted November 29, 2004 you've blinded me with science thanks for the physics lesson. mathmatically makes sense. take a look at this and give me another opinion i am trying to solve this dilemma ... the mechanical fan, with clutch set up, is dangerously close to the radiator and the fan sticks up above the radiator, not too safe. according to the folks at JTR, my 4 core radiator will not cool efficiently, as by the time the cool air reaches the last two cores, the air has become superheated, no longer draws the heat with it. thus, engine runs hotter. i have only been able to drive the car about a total of 25 miles ( test rides ), as i have been giving it the sarah winchester treatment ( on going modifications, combined with a lack of funds ). i do not know whether the engine overheats. but i do know that, when it broke down, the previous owner parked it for 10 years. he claims it never overheated, or ran hot. the fix was replacing a cracked head and blown head gasket. makes me think, it overheated. i thought that eliminating the dangerous mechanical fan, with a high volume electric fan would be the way to go. the 2 sd taurus fan is the fan of choice, by those who have gone before. thing is, i'm about an inch shy of having the room to install the taurus fan. a shorter water pump was suggested. i do not know if i have a long pump or a short pump. nor do i know the difference in lengths of either. my thinking was ... if i replace the pump, and it gives me room to install the 2 spd taurus fan, would it be a good idea to use a high volume water pump ? OR ... is it a waste of time with the current 4 core radiator, which holds more volume, but apparently, per JTR, does a poor job at transferring heat. in which case ... i would be better off, replacing the radiator with the two core, which has a greater air flow capability. the JTR radiator is supposed to be thinner than the 4 core radiator, but thus far, i haven't been able to find out, how much thinner. from what i've gained from your message, you think that i should keep my current radiator, provided a short, high volume water pump allows me to fit the taurus electric fan, as the higher volume of coolant moved, will increase cooling. that is the route, you suggest i should follow ? anyway any one looks at it, i am getting rid of the mechanical fan. thanks for taking the time to reply to my query !!! wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onovakind67 Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 The SBC long water pump measures 7" from the block to the outer edge of the rotating flange. The short pump measures 5-5/8". If you can stick your finger between the timing cover and the pump, it is a long pump. CHP has a nice article on the differences between the pumps and the associated pulleys. http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/49718/# I would definitely recommend the Taurus fan installation. We have done several of these with great results. I set them up so they use both speeds automatically, and it's seldom that the high speed comes on. Don't buy your water pump by the external appearance, make sure it is a good high volume pump. We use either the Edelbrock pump or a Stewart pump. For the money it's hard to beat the Stewart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waynekarnes Posted December 2, 2004 Author Share Posted December 2, 2004 hey thanks for getting back to me !!!! much appreciate it i must have the long pump, lots of room between the pump and the cover . i'll have to measure it. i was looking at the summit catalog, edelbrook aluminum pump, stewarts. if i have the long pump and as you and others suggested, switching to the the short pump gives me the room i need for clearance, that'll be great ... that is once i figure the pulleys out ... and come up with some sort of brackets for mounting the fan. Mike, any chance you can send pix of your set up ? thanks everyone , wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waynekarnes Posted December 2, 2004 Author Share Posted December 2, 2004 so's i goes to summit, on line .. want to know if i have a clockwise or counter clockwise water pump ... ???? it's late 60's early 70's block i'm thinking, from driver's seat ... fan turns clock wise ? or does it ... they do mean from the driver's seat ... YES ??? man, have never been asked that before ... i just went in ... need a water pump for a 69 z/28 with 302 DZ block ( my brother has a DZ block for sale ) counter man hands me a pump ... no one has ever asked which direction the pump runs ... i know ... start the engine and look ... again, most references to direction are based on driver's seat ... does this hold true for this spinning water pump too ? thanks ... i should be in bed .. get up in 4 hours to go to work ... probably have a nightmare about changing water pumps over and over on the side of the freeway, all of em spinning the wrong directions, with pulleys that keep tossing the belts ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onovakind67 Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 The water pump on the old SBC's turns clockwise, same as the engine. We use pulleys from Speedway with our Edelbrock short pump. They are dual pulleys so you can have a dedicated pump belt and another for the alternator. http://www.speedwaymotors.com look up part # 91015460 for the pulleys, #91015703 for the 180 degree thermostat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waynekarnes Posted December 3, 2004 Author Share Posted December 3, 2004 i just got home from work ... pulled the blue tarp back ... measured from the flange where the water pump attaches to the block. pump measures around 7 inches. so, at this point appears that if i get the short high volume pump, i'll gain an inch of clearance. i'm gonna place the taurus fan in there again and make sure it wasn't wishful thinking on my part. that all i need is that inch of clearance. i have a double pulley, currently only running one belt, to turn the smog pump, alt. and the water pump. will have to move at least either the alt or the smog pump, so i may be able to adjust the belt running the water pump. thanks again for the info and the web sites. a suggestion was made, that there is a tall taurus fan and a short one. are there part numbers on the those fans ( shrouds ) ? thanks again, wayne ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onovakind67 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 I looked at some Taurus fans I have out back and they all have an 8146 in the part number, as in XXXX-8146-XX. The other numbers refer to the year of manufacture and some other codes. This number is on the inside of the shroud in one of the corners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waynekarnes Posted December 5, 2004 Author Share Posted December 5, 2004 how does one adjust a dedicated pump belt ? you know, i've been checking all this out ... gonna cost me more for a water pump, belts, brackets, and pulleys than i paid for the scarab ... LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waynekarnes Posted December 5, 2004 Author Share Posted December 5, 2004 i checked both of the fans i have, one from a sable, one from a taurus, both have the same 8146 number ... i was thinking about running two bars, both horizontally, one across the top and one the bottom. mount the taurus fan to those bars. how have others been mounting the fan ?? i have sent several e mails to jtr, no replies regarding their radiator ... left a message on their voicemail this morning .. wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onovakind67 Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 how does one adjust a dedicated pump belt ? You don't - you buy them to fit your particular pulleys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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