QWKDTSN Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 purchase a set of Illuminas that are meant for the front and put them in the rear, and purchase a set of Illuminas that are meant for a Rabbit? Would this work, or am I forced to use stock struts? this whole thing is really confusing. Sorry, guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavyZ Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 Yes! That will work. The place in the front strut that accepts the Illumina is "D" shaped and will have to be drilled round, that's not a biggie! Just take your time and all will turn out fine. In the unlikely event that you screw up, there's my second home: the junk yard! David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scca Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 dont use the rabbit inserts the valving isnt stuff enough for HD usage, there are better choices out there .. the valving is based on the car it comes out of originally and a rabbit doesnt have much front end weight or HP so the valving is fairly soft ------------------ Mike mike@fonebooth.com http://www.fonebooth.com/brakes.html raceparts and brake upgrades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavyZ Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 Mike, would GTI strut cartridges be any better? I have heard that MR2 strut cartridges are a better choice: but what year of MR2 etc? Any specifics? Gracias! David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scca Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 the mr2 is the one of choice as its a rear strut insert and valved for the weight of the motor and fact that mr2 werent that slow.. ------------------ Mike mike@fonebooth.com http://www.fonebooth.com/brakes.html raceparts and brake upgrades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavyZ Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 Super! I'm assuming, though, that the strut "D" shaped hole must still be drilled round to accommodate the insert, yes? This is great news and I will go that route. Tell me, what is the range that the strut should be sectioned; 2-3 inches max? I don't want a severely lowered Z, so maybe just relocating a spring perch is o.k. with lowering springs, or sectioning 2 inches would be o.k. for my application as long as that is in the cards. Here is a dumb question, would the car need lowering springs after sectioning the strut? What would you do for a car that will see 90% street use? I want the car to sit about 2 inches lower. Cost is a factor here. Thanks Mike! David [This message has been edited by DavyZ (edited January 06, 2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 I'm "this close" to buying Mark's MR-2 and and 240Z front Illuminas, but I need to know something: I have sectioned my strut tubes 1.5" front and back and I currently have the Rabbit strut cartridge in the front. Will the MR-2 cartridge fit? Ground Control said they might be longer than the Rabbit piece. Are the MR-2 and Rabbit struts the same length (below the gland nut that holds them in the tube)? Thanks for any help ------------------ Pete Paraska - 73 540Z - Marathon Z Project pparaska@home.com Pete's V8 Datsun 240Z Pages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QWKDTSN Posted January 7, 2001 Author Share Posted January 7, 2001 Okay, great.. So I could pick up rear MR2 Illuminas and front 240Z Illuminas and it'd work? I'm not sure about the D-shaped hole since I haven't actually taken my suspension apart to see exactly how it all goes together yet (LOL). I'm going to have everything apart when I install my Energy Suspension bushings, so I'll be able to figure it out and shop for struts then.. I'd prefer to go straight from stock suspension to coilovers, sectioned struts and adjustables without any interim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scca Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 the D shaped nut is a specific year of rabbit, there is another year i believe that comes with a proper nut that will work on a datsun strut tube,, i dont know the year but i do know there are a few different VW strut tubes. ------------------ Mike mike@fonebooth.com http://www.fonebooth.com/brakes.html raceparts and brake upgrades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromio Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 So it's the rears! We're making progress. Is it the 85-86 rear MR2, or the 87-89 rear MR2? How about the gland nut? Will the one that comes with the MR2 carts work in the 240 tubes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 quote: Originally posted by jeromio: So it's the rears! We're making progress. Is it the 85-86 rear MR2, or the 87-89 rear MR2? Okay, I did some poking around, and found the following: '82 GTI: 2100 lb 65/35 weight dist. weight on front wheels ~1350lb '85 GTI 16V: 2250 lb 65/35 weight dist. (couldn't find published weight dist. numbers, so I used the same from '82, assuming that the added weight came mostly from the 16V engine, and the weight dist. probably didn't get better - probably got worse) weight on front wheels: ~1460 lb '85 MR2 (n/a): 2380 lb weight dist. 45/55 weight on rear wheels: ~1310 lb '88 MR2 SC: 2600 lb weight dist 42/58 weight on rear wheels: ~1510 lb Now, can somebody please explain to me why the MR2 rears are that much better of a choice? The corner weight difference between the heaviest GTI and the heaviest MR2 is 25lbs. The lightest GTI actually carries 20 _more_ than the lightest MR2. In fact, all of these numbers are in the ballpark for the front axle weight of a JTR V8 VZ, assuming you've watched your weight somewhat. To answer the original question, though, it looks to me like you would want to look for rear shocks from a supercharged MR2, assuming they actually used different valving. If they didn't, then the GTI vs. MR2 argument looks like a wash to me. ...Sorry if I sound like a troublemaker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 Okay, I did a little more poking around and found the following: Tokico HZ1093: Fits 85-92 Golf, Golf GTI, Jetta, Jetta GLI (front) (couldn't find a Tokico part# for the earlier Rabbits, but some info on wrenchhead showed that they used the same Gland Nut, although the replacement shock part#'s were different) Tokico BZ1086: Fits 85-86 Toyota MR2 (rear) Same part for SC and na variants Tokico BZ3099: Fits 87-89 Toyota MR2 (rear) Same part for SC and na variants I have no idea as to which Toyota strut actually physically fits the Z, but it's interesting that in both cases, there is no differentiation between SC and na. Just a little more food for thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromio Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 Okay, this then could be good news for boneheaded me. If the gland nut on the 85 and 84 tokicos is the same - that implies that the tops of each are the same - yes? So, since the gland nut for the Z doesn't fit the top of the VW carts (even with any of the supplied spacers), then that implies that the way to use these carts is to machine a ring that has the OD of the ID of the gland nut and the ID of the OD of the top of the cart. And also drill out the isolator. AND install the isolator on the strut and then install the whole assembly on the car. Yoinks. Where on wrenchhead did you find this info on the gland nut? Are the 84 and 85 carts the same length? Because these 84s I have are really short. The body is over 2 inches shorter than the Z front cart. It would be fantastic if Tokico would simply publish all the info on all of their various cartridges. Or even if there was a shop locally here that had a huge inventory of the various types so that I could compare. I'm really wishing that I hadn't already bought these 84s.... [This message has been edited by jeromio (edited January 07, 2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scca Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 the reasoning the mr2 is better is ..... as a car accelerates weight transfers rearward thus a front shock wouldnt be that stiffly valved, also a rabbit cant have near the weight on its front that a Z does. the MR2 has the motor on in the rear + the added value of having stiffer valving due to being rear. ------------------ Mike mike@fonebooth.com http://www.fonebooth.com/brakes.html raceparts and brake upgrades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 quote: Originally posted by jeromio: So, since the gland nut for the Z doesn't fit the top of the VW carts (even with any of the supplied spacers), then that implies that the way to use these carts is to machine a ring that has the OD of the ID of the gland nut and the ID of the OD of the top of the cart. And also drill out the isolator. AND install the isolator on the strut and then install the whole assembly on the car. This is essentially what I did. As I recall, there was a nylon spacer that came with mine that had the correct id (obviously), and an OD that slightly too large. I just carefully removed material from the OD until it just fit in the strut tube (I think I just used a razor blade - can't remember for sure - it was a couple of years ago). I have the Carerra camber plates, so I didn't have to mess with the isolator, but I did have to make a bushing so that it would fit in the spherical bearing in the plate. I've had no problems since. quote: Where on wrenchhead did you find this info on the gland nut? Are the 84 and 85 carts the same length? Because these 84s I have are really short. The body is over 2 inches shorter than the Z front cart. Set your car type to one of the two, then go to 'Replacement Parts', then 'Shocks and Struts', then 'Performance Gas Shocks - Front'. These will be KYB shocks, but it shouldn't matter. You'll notice in the description that they call out a VW strut tube nut part number. If you go through all of this again for the other model year, you'll see that the strut part# is different, but it still calls out the same VW strut tube nut. I don't know about the lengths of the two struts, but you got me thinking, and I looked up my old receipt from when I bought the struts from Strano's (amazing that I still had it and could find it, huh? ). It turns out that they sold me the BZ1073 strut, which, as it turns out is for the earlier GTI/Jetta/Scirocco. This ought to be the same part that you have. As far as the length goes, yes mine were quite a bit shorter than my strut tube, which I expected. You can make a spacer for it by cutting a piece of Schedule 40 pipe (plumbing section at the HW store) of the appropriate diameter to the length that you will need to get the top of the cartridge body about 1/16" above the top of the tube. I don't remember the exact size, but the OD should be slightly smaller than the OD of the cartridge, and the ID such that the cartridge can sit in it and center itself. Whew - hope that all makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 quote: Originally posted by scca: the reasoning the mr2 is better is ..... as a car accelerates weight transfers rearward thus a front shock wouldnt be that stiffly valved, also a rabbit cant have near the weight on its front that a Z does. Okay - sorry if I'm being a PIA here but I have a couple more thoughts on this... Yes, the SC MR2 could accelerate somewhat faster. However both cars have to stop, too - right? Max effort braking forces are always higher (at least on production cars) than acceleration. So, when the Golf is doing a panic stop, there will be considerably more weight transferred to the front than is transferred to the rear of the MR2 at WOT. Also, I don't know the numbers, but I'd be really be surprised if the Golf didn't have a higher cg than the MR2. This, of course would make the Golf have greater weight transferred under accel/decel. As far as the weight comparison issue between the Golf and the front of the Z, let's do the math... I was assuming a near 50/50 weight distribution on the Z, which is what most people shoot for, and not at all unreasonable for the modified Z's that grace the garages of most hybridz.org's patrons . Anyway, from the previous post, the Golf has a front axle weight of ~1300lb to ~1460lb, depending on the model year. On a 50/50 ZCar, this equates to a total weight of ~2600lb to 2920lb. I don't think that that is too far off for a first gen Z. Please don't get me wrong - I have no problem with the use of the MR2 strut - more choices are always better. I just see it as more of an equivalent alternative, and I'm just trying to save jeromio some money . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scca Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 i need to clarify myself. IF you already have rabbit inserts dont throw them away to buy MR2 . but IF you have none all things being equal buy the MR2 over the rabbit ones. logically the stopping issue makes sense but i dont think in reality it occurs that way. most race cars use a stiffer rear shock/spring combo. even if its 25 lbs off the rears are still stiffer . all you need to do with your existing rabbit inserts is locate a pair of strut tops from a pair of kyb or kontrolle or monroe etc inserts froma datsun either 510 or whatever all same nut thread (except 280z) if you still had the "original" oil strut it wont have the type of nut you need. most cars have had struts replaced by now and that top should fit over the VW insert. the way i look at it is if you were tokiko and making inserts which car would have a stiffer baseline.. a rabbit daily driver or a MR2.. to me no contest the MR2 is a sports car the rabbit isnt... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 Shocks have nothing to do with braking or holding up weight...... You can call various manufacturers and ask them what the damping rates are, they will tell you. At least I know bilstein will, I assume tokico is as helpfull. ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromio Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 This is making me very happy. I was all set to have to whine to CarParts.com, deal with shipping, restock fees, etc. This is very good news. As to the gland nut issue, my car, in all of it's 30 year old glory, still has the original strut guts. So, what I need to do is get a gland nut. I'll try Tokico directly first (not open yet). Any one know of any other parts houses to try? As to strut tube length, it seems like the consensus is to shorten by 1.5 inches. So, I will probably have to get some pipe for the cart to sit on to make up that 1/2 inch (actually more) difference. I'm planning on using my tubing cutter on the tube. This creates a perfectly orthagonal, burr free cut, but it does tend to squeeze the tube, which tapers the end a bit. Since there's plenty of room for the cart in the tube, I'm not particularly worried about this (plus, it's thick tubing and probably won't deform as much as the 18ga I'm used to). The tapered ends do make a nice little valley for the weld though. I have also bought a new set of 84 rotors and 83 calipers for the front brake upgrade. I'm planning on relocating the caliper mounting holes. My logic is that since rotors are a wear item, it'd be nice to not have to have them machined when replaced. Also, it'll cost me $24 to have them turned. Anyway, I'm gonna cut the "ears" and then weld them back 1/8" further out (or whatever the actual distance ends up being). This is slightly different that what Terry Oxendale describes, but I think it will work well. Alright! Thank you TimZ. I'm all set except for the one part (gland nuts). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromio Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 YES! I just called Tokico and they're comping me 2 gland nuts! I don't even have to pay for shipping. This completely rocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.