Guest Anonymous Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 Sundance: nothing is always better than something else - for a double arm setup to be superior to anything at all it has to be designed properly. 30-40 years ago people weren't thinking about what you worry about today - cars were underpowered, had crappy brakes, and sticky tires didn't exist. I simply wouldn't go through the trouble you are talking about to retrofit a decades old suspension design to replace another desades old design that has been repeatedly proven to be more than adequate in performance and reliability. Do you even know, say, anything about the roll center of the stock s30 front end as compared to the m2 front end? I'm guessing you don't.... And for the porsche, sounds like you're just repeating what everyone else says about them. 911s are the single most sucessfull race car ever. That being the case, they can't handle all that bad with their uncontrollable oversteer and crappy strut suspension. I would doubt that anyone here has driven a new 911 turbo. If so, they are certainly in the minority. So here are the facts that we know: IF designed properly, a double arm suspension is more ideal for performance. (That's a big if) You know nothing about the mustang 2 front suspension's design. It will be lots of work to fit the m2 suspension. It will be little work to get the stock strut suspension up to snuff, as well as cheaper and faster. The stock strut suspension is more than adequate. So, you are replacing a suspension that can be made to perform more than well enough with a suspension that you know nothing about and will require enormous amounts of work and money, and in the end, may end up performing worse. Doesn't sound like a wise solution to me, but what do I know. This is my last comment on this subject as well. ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 Morgan, good points on the things we know. But this sounds so much like the LS1/T56 thread on the Chevy forum. If he wants something different, knowing everything he's trading one way or another, even if it's just to do things differently, that's a valid choice too. Very much along the lines of what American hotrodders started doing over 50 years ago. I say do some research on the MII stuff to see what the roll center (excellent point), camber curve, bumpsteer, scrub radius, wheel/tire/brake posibilities are before making solid plans and buying anything. The Z suspension with upgrades works wonderfully (beyond the talents of many drivers) and it'd be a shame to do this swap to MII and have lost some performance or driveability in the process. Then again, the journey down the research road is half the fun! And if you learn something to help them design a system that's better in some aspect important to you from the Z stuff, then all the better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Okay, I've tried to stay out but I feel I must make a point or two Street rods, like Mustang IIs aren't exactly billed as "handling machines". Many of th eMII suspensions I've seen put in cars have been for straightline use with a right turn onto the return road only for the most part. I HAVE been in a MII handling at the limit but I wasn't driving - it seemed to handle well even if it did pick up the inside tire on hard turns and fry it when setting it down (King Cobra). That car had lot's of roll and wasn't exactly built for handling - but that's sort of my point anyway. Ask the builders who make this stuff if any of their users are road racing etc. and maybe ask for a refrence or two... My advice is to be very careful and try to find out if anyone is using this stuff for road racing type apps. Even if this suspension turns out to NOT be the right one - there may be others out there so don't give up! I look forward to hearing how this comes out one way or the other... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Sorry, I don't have any hub-to-hub measurements. BLKMGK, good point. Find a proven road race setup with the MII stuff and talk the person's ear off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 BLKMGK, That is indeed a good point,....now who do I talk to? Don't worry guys this is a while in the makeing I first want to seam weld all the joints install my fuel cell and posibly start the cage before I even begine to tackle the IFS! I know I am new to this forum but those who do know me know that I research the hell out of anything I plan on doing! Just look at the H4 headlight thread! I think I know more about H4 headlights than Phillips! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Well said Pete. If someone hadn't at one time thought about putting V8's in Datsun Z's we would be like that other website we don't want to mention. If someone else has an idea and is prepared to bankroll it, then more power to them. We benefit from they're experience and it cost us nothing. Variety and change is a good thing. Its great people want to step out of the box, otherwise we'd be discussing how my stock Z could beat your stock Z and it would be down to driver skill (God forbid!). It is unfortunate where the discussion headed in the Chev. forum, but I think that was hopefully a misunderstanding. Lone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Thanks for your concerns on the suspention geometry! No, I won't just slap a kit in without knowing the measurements. I will first need to get the measurement from the manufacturer to be able to run them in my suspention software! The unfortunate thing about a strut suspention is there are to my knowledge no computer programs that can calculate it's geometry. Even if there were there are far to many variables in design to account for were as a a-arm setup all you have is arm lenghts agles and pick up points. My requirements for my Z will be: No bumpsteer! Some anti dive (around 40% should do) too much anti dive will cause bumpsteer! Good figures for roll center. Camber change of approx 4* over entire travel range. As little scrub as posible (I think the numbers will be good because I will most likely need to use a negative wheel offset to get it to fit. Pete, do you have the measurements for the cassis and hub to hub? I took some "ruf" measurements today but I would like some better measurements. Morgan, don't get mad, I consider your opinion and knowledge very valuable to me and anyone else who is considering a MII IFS. Yes I have driven a porsche 911 granted it was an older one but yes I have and yes that is how it handled! It is easy to be the most winningest in any sport if you out number the competitors! A first gen Honda CRX dominates SCCA in it's class but If I had a panyard rod rear suspention in my car it would be the first thing to go! Just my opinion when the back end feels like it is going out the side rear fender every time I hit a bump. That Sucks! Even if it wins every and all races it still sucks! IMHO the CRX rear suspention is a cheap pile of crap, but it wins races! I don't have the specs on the current MII designs but I will, and when I do I will share them with everyone. Pete, good point! One; I am doing it to be differant more importantly I honestly feel this is the way to go, pending measurements ect. Two; I have done almost every aspect of modern modifying to a car possible with exception of the chassis and now it's time to learn good or bad. Every car I've owned and modified I have been "limited" by the chassis. My final point is this; It will be me doing it and everyone can learn from my mistake or gain from my knowledge. Either way, good or bad I appreciate your insights! I would rather spend more time talking about the technicalitys of the mod than the moral or theoretical side of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JAMIE T Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Go buy CHASSIS ENGINEERING by Herb Adams from your local book seller, SLA (short-long-arm) is huge, My 94 Z28 uses it and it has struts. No gripes with Strut suspension though because my Mustang Conv. pulls .98 on a G pad and moves through twisties like BUTTAH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Adkins Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Mustang II front suspensions are used on many Cobra kit cars and I think most of those guys are into road race type setups.... Maybe go to one of the cobra kit car web forums and ask about it there.... quote: Originally posted by pparaska: BLKMGK, good point. Find a proven road race setup with the MII stuff and talk the person's ear off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-Dreamer Posted January 26, 2001 Share Posted January 26, 2001 I have a Heidt's catalog and it is FULL of Tech on the MII. Lots of info on camber and caster, toe angle and anti-dive, also a very inpressive offering of goodies. Order one, it's FREE! 800-841-8188 ------------------ " Now where did I set my beer? " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 26, 2001 Share Posted January 26, 2001 JAMIE T, I already have it! lol Also I found a good book yesterday that I was very impressed with called metal fabricators handbook. It has a little of everything. I picked up a Street Rodder mag as well for more selection of manufacturers than what I can find on the web, many, many choices..... so far it looks like rigging a Heits cross member or haveing Jim Meyer Raceing Products make me one to my specs, at this point it is open, who knows? I was even thinking about buying tubular A-arms, spindles and brakes and makeing my own cross member. I did find something of interest for the strut guys to do away with the strut rod. You weld a second pickup point to the the bottom of the frame and a tube to the side of the lower arm to triangulate it into an A-arm. I'll post picks if anyone is interested. Thanks again for everyones help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted January 26, 2001 Share Posted January 26, 2001 Sundance, that last bit about getting rid of the strut rod - AZ Z car's front control arm does just that and uses a pivot that mounts in the T/C bracket bracket for the aft leg of the A-arm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Pete, the Arizona A-arms don't cost 90.00 for both sides though lol, I'll post pics later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 29, 2001 Share Posted January 29, 2001 My .02$ go for it !!! there definatly has to be a reason why fabricated cars(race cars,high end kit cars) use a double a arm supension insted of strut(personally I beleive struts on newer Z28camero/mustang were for emission reduction/weight reduction (no frame cars)but the new cars also seem to have more metal and technology in the suspension/chassis than our Z's). Yes I think both suspension can be made to work very well but like you mentoned earlier all the work you plan to do with the frame rails ect ect I would do some home work to find out what is better for my Z. Good luck!! and keep us posted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromio Posted January 29, 2001 Share Posted January 29, 2001 The main reason that any car has a strut suspension is cost - much cheaper to manufacture. This is mostly due to assembly - one less part (the upper arm) to bolt on and one less thing to have to adjust. I failed to mention before that the stock MII's camber adjustment is highly prone to slippage. Granted, I have a very heavy truck, with a very heavy big block mounted directly over the xmember, but I cannot get the upper arms to stay put. My impact wrench is a beast too, but to no avail. There are better ways to allow for upper arm camber adjustment (heim jointed arms for instance). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 I agree, heim joints are the way to go. Another option is an esentric but I would rather the heim joint type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Sundance here is a site you might be interested inhttp://www.rqriley.com/suspensn.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 I belive that the article Zman posted should be read by everyone! Learned some interesting and new info and strengthened what I already knew. Very good article Zman! Thankyou, I have that site book marked for future refrance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest needwaymorespeed Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 [i did find something of interest for the strut guys to do away with the strut rod. You weld a second pickup point to the the bottom of the frame and a tube to the side of the lower arm to triangulate it into an A-arm. I'll post picks if anyone is interested. Thanks again for everyones help![/b] -------------------------------------------- Sundance that sounds great axiously awaiting some pics Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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