700R4 Transmission - Please Advise

[Guest Mike]

I'm sure there are other posts regarding this subject, but I couldn't find anything...

 

I have a 260Z with a 355 SBC and TH350. I want to swap the tranny for a 700R4 that will readily handle 400HP/400Torque... plus an occasional 100HP shot of nitrous... without giving me problems. I'll have wide stickies on the back and a VLSD w/3.90:1 ratio. A slight stall converter will be added for a harder launch (approximately 400RPM higher than stock). This is a street car so I won't be doing anything too radical with it.

 

I'm on a budget, so every penny counts. Is there anything I should be aware of regarding build parts... other than making sure they use one with the larger 30 spline output shaft and high performance clutch bands, harder-shifting springs, etc? Would it be better to order one from an on-line high performance tranny builder and have it installed locally?

[jimszx]

The key to reliable 700R4 is correct TV cable adjustment. As this simple part controls fluid pressure to hold the bands tight. When not properly adjusted the pressure will be too low allowing the bands to slip causing your new transmission to experience thermal meltdown. A 700R4 with quality internals and a correct cable adjustment will give you years of service.

[jakeshoe]

Mike,

400Hp/TQ is about where I believe the limit is on a 700 to live "reliably". By reliably I mean without issue and not rebuilding it every year. Also not worrying about WHEN (not IF) the input shaft/drum or 3-4 clutches are going to quit.

That said, the 400 Hp/Tq range should be reliable especially in a lightweight Z car.

Your only issue will be the use of nitrous. When you add a 100 HP shot of nitrous you boost the TQ much more than 100 lb/ft.

So now instead of a 400 lb/ft torque launch, your leaving with 600+ probably. The weight of the Z car may let you get by with this, or the weakness of the 700 make cause failure.

 

To build one fairly stout I would recommend you use:

10 or 13 vane pump setup with (TransGo) chromoly pump rings.

Raybestos Z-pack for the 3-4 clutches.

Alto Red Eagle band for the 2-4 band.

Beast Sun shell.

093 (Vette) servo.

TransGo reprogramming kit.

Large boost valves.

Otherwise mostly stock stuff and good rebuild technique.

 

Mike Kurtz of Century Trans is in the Houston area and could probably do you well.

 

Also of note,

a 200-4R will fit easier into the chassis with no driveshaft mods, only moving the crossmember would be required (and TV setup).

You would probably spend slightly more to do a 200-4R right, but would save some of it on driveshaft mods.

 

The 700's deep first gear and your rear ratio will make for a hard to hook combo. The 200 has a better gear spread.

[Guest Mike]

The key to reliable 700R4 is correct TV cable adjustment. As this simple part controls fluid pressure to hold the bands tight. When not properly adjusted the pressure will be too low allowing the bands to slip causing your new transmission to experience thermal meltdown. A 700R4 with quality internals and a correct cable adjustment will give you years of service.

 

Thanks jimszx. Can you point me to some tech info on how to adjust the TC Cable?

[Guest Mike]

Mike' date='

400Hp/TQ is about where I believe the limit is on a 700 to live "reliably". By reliably I mean without issue and not rebuilding it every year. Also not worrying about WHEN (not IF) the input shaft/drum or 3-4 clutches are going to quit.

That said, the 400 Hp/Tq range should be reliable especially in a lightweight Z car.

Your only issue will be the use of nitrous. When you add a 100 HP shot of nitrous you boost the TQ much more than 100 lb/ft.

So now instead of a 400 lb/ft torque launch, your leaving with 600+ probably. The weight of the Z car may let you get by with this, or the weakness of the 700 make cause failure.

 

To build one fairly stout I would recommend you use:

10 or 13 vane pump setup with (TransGo) chromoly pump rings.

Raybestos Z-pack for the 3-4 clutches.

Alto Red Eagle band for the 2-4 band.

Beast Sun shell.

093 (Vette) servo.

TransGo reprogramming kit.

Large boost valves.

Otherwise mostly stock stuff and good rebuild technique.

 

Mike Kurtz of Century Trans is in the Houston area and could probably do you well.

 

Also of note,

a 200-4R will fit easier into the chassis with no driveshaft mods, only moving the crossmember would be required (and TV setup).

You would probably spend slightly more to do a 200-4R right, but would save some of it on driveshaft mods.

 

The 700's deep first gear and your rear ratio will make for a hard to hook combo. The 200 has a better gear spread.[/quote']

 

Thanks jakeshoe. This is what I need... a list of specific parts.

 

I'll never use nitrous at launch. In fact, I don't think I'll use it until I hit third and fourth gears and this will be via an easy progressive controller. I want this tranny to last for several years with no fuss.

 

I like the gearing of the 2004R, but I've heard that its weaknesses make for a very pricey build. However, if I can have one built as strong as a good 700R4 within a couple hundred bucks, I'll opt for the 200. Any specific parts I need to make a semi-bulletproof 200?

[jakeshoe]

Mike,

The main weakness in the 200-4R for high performance use is the forward drum.

Keep in mind the GN's used these transmissions and they put out quite a bit of torque stock in a moderately heavy platform.

The forward drum is about $400 by itself for a billet shaft type unit. This is the main expsense.

The other issue that has to be addressed is servo size. The stock 86-87 GN's has a decent servo size but the best answer is to use the Superior or Sonnax servo which is a $100 item.

Other than these issues, you can do some minor upgrades internally (stuff that should be done even on a stock rebuild) and the 200 is a fairly tough unit. I was running one behind the 427 BBC in my '69 Chevelle. The same trans will likely make its way into the Z project soon.

 

The 200 needs:

Alto Red frictions in the direct drum

Improved forward drum

Larger servo

Alto Red Eagle 2nd band

3 clutch overdrive setup (simple procedure to add an extra clutch, this alone really firms up the OD shift)

Dual feeding the direct clutches (simple mod but requires the improved forward drum to prevent breakage, this firms up the 2-3 shift, makes a huge difference in the liveability of the directs, same mod is done on almost all performance TH350 and 400's...)

A 10 or 13 vane pump setup with chromoly rings (parts are the same as 700)

Larger boost valves (same parts as a 700)

Valve body mods (TransGo kit works with some mods)

Hardened sun shell and stator (necessary on stock rebuild, later models already had this) Both parts cost less than $30 total.

 

If you wanted a 200, Mike Kurtz is again a respected vendor for these units. he can make recommendations as to what he thinks will work.

 

Chris at CKPerformance is also well known for his 200-4R's. He makes the billet forward drums that I use when I build them. I would probably suggest using his shift kit over anybody's. He KNOWs the hydraulics on these trannies.

[Guest Mike]

Mike' date='

The main weakness in the 200-4R for high performance use is the forward drum.

Keep in mind the GN's used these transmissions and they put out quite a bit of torque stock in a moderately heavy platform.

The forward drum is about $400 by itself for a billet shaft type unit. This is the main expsense.

The other issue that has to be addressed is servo size. The stock 86-87 GN's has a decent servo size but the best answer is to use the Superior or Sonnax servo which is a $100 item.

Other than these issues, you can do some minor upgrades internally (stuff that should be done even on a stock rebuild) and the 200 is a fairly tough unit. I was running one behind the 427 BBC in my '69 Chevelle. The same trans will likely make its way into the Z project soon.

 

The 200 needs:

Alto Red frictions in the direct drum

Improved forward drum

Larger servo

Alto Red Eagle 2nd band

3 clutch overdrive setup (simple procedure to add an extra clutch, this alone really firms up the OD shift)

Dual feeding the direct clutches (simple mod but requires the improved forward drum to prevent breakage, this firms up the 2-3 shift, makes a huge difference in the liveability of the directs, same mod is done on almost all performance TH350 and 400's...)

A 10 or 13 vane pump setup with chromoly rings (parts are the same as 700)

Larger boost valves (same parts as a 700)

Valve body mods (TransGo kit works with some mods)

Hardened sun shell and stator (necessary on stock rebuild, later models already had this) Both parts cost less than $30 total.

 

If you wanted a 200, Mike Kurtz is again a respected vendor for these units. he can make recommendations as to what he thinks will work.

 

Chris at CKPerformance is also well known for his 200-4R's. He makes the billet forward drums that I use when I build them. I would probably suggest using his shift kit over anybody's. He KNOWs the hydraulics on these trannies.[/quote']

 

Thanks jakeshoe!!

 

I'm planning on having a local transmission shop do the rebuild/swap so it's easier to deal with a warranty issue should the need arise. Your advice will help me to identify a shop with people who know how to build durable units. Of course, I'll ask some local car clubs which transmission shops are reputible.

 

Any further advice is greatly appreciated.

[jakeshoe]

The problem with most "local" shops is that they are in business to do stock rebuilds. The more they do the more $ they bring in. You'll also expereince the same (maybe even more so) with a delaership trans guy, very good at replacing parts, rebuilding stuff, but knows nothing about improving the stock transmission.

 

I can tell you now, most local shops will not even touch a 200-4R for performance work because they believe in the old wives tale that they are junk. Not only that but they will have no idea about how to make it live under power.

The dual feed technique I discussed is really only used in the performance world for the 2004-R and most builders would likely not know how to do it. If they knew how to do it, they would then probably pull there hair out trying to figure out why the transmission had a bind-up on the 2-3 shift after rebuild.

Using this method to feed the direct (3rd) clutches causes them to come on more efficiently.

A little theory for you,

On both the 700-R4 and the 200-4R, the 2nd gear band must release, and the 3rd gear clutches must come on. This is unlike a TH350 or TH400 where the 2nd clutches stay engaged and the 3rd gear clutch then "stack shift" on top of them. No matter what you do on a TH350 or 400 to speed the 3rd gear shift, it isn't an issue, because there isn't any real timing involving releasing another element.

The 200 and 700 shift has to be timed, so that the band releases as the 3rd clutches apply. If the 2nd band releases too soon then the transmission will have a "flair" which will feel like it is slipping, however it is actually a momentary return to 1st gear.

There should be an overlap between the band releasing and the 3rd cltuches applying, so that you get a clean shift.

If this overlap becomes to great, the trans is effectively in two gears at once. 2nd and 3rd. It acts somewhat like a trans-brake. In severe case you will actually be able to hear and feel the motor lug on the shift. If the car is on a lift you will see the tires stop, as the shift takes place.

This causes extreme stress on the friction elements as they work against each other, and this is why the forward drum must be the billet unit for a dual fed 200-4R. To make a firm shift you will have just enough overlap so that moment of release of the band coincides with the moment of lockup of the 3rd clutches. There will be a bit of crossover that will strain the forward drum at WOT shifts. It will snap the stock drum.

 

It is an easily corrected problem on the 200-4R, the band release orifice has to be properly sized so that the band releases quicker. However you often have to start from a known point and drop the pan a couple of times to get it perfect.

Most local shops aren't going to understand this and won't mess with it.

Chris at CKPerformance in car tests each unit before it leaves. So warranty issues should be few as long as the installer gets the geometry setup correctly for the TV cable.

MIke Kurtz is well known as a 200-4R builder and will know these things. There are really only a couple of handfuls of decent 200-4R builders and that's the issue with using this transmission.

 

Most shops have done THOUSANDS of 700's so are more comfortable doing them, but you will find that many offer no warranty for a performance unit.

[Guest zfan]

The 200 tranny is better than the 700r4 for gearing reasons. I purchased a 700r4/Corvette transmission from a member here. I believe I have had it for 5 years and have had it rebuilt once.

 

I am running a 383 Sbc in my 240Z. I drive the car frequently and drag race it often. I do not spray nitrous yet but I run high 10's with little or no problems at all. Set it up right and you will be good to go. Key is the set up as mentioned in an earlier post.

 

Mike

[Guest Mike]

The problem with most "local" shops is that they are in business to do stock rebuilds. The more they do the more $ they bring in. You'll also expereince the same (maybe even more so) with a delaership trans guy' date=' very good at replacing parts, rebuilding stuff, but knows nothing about improving the stock transmission.

 

I can tell you now, most local shops will not even touch a 200-4R for performance work because they believe in the old wives tale that they are junk. Not only that but they will have no idea about how to make it live under power.

The dual feed technique I discussed is really only used in the performance world for the 2004-R and most builders would likely not know how to do it. If they knew how to do it, they would then probably pull there hair out trying to figure out why the transmission had a bind-up on the 2-3 shift after rebuild.

Using this method to feed the direct (3rd) clutches causes them to come on more efficiently.

A little theory for you,

On both the 700-R4 and the 200-4R, the 2nd gear band must release, and the 3rd gear clutches must come on. This is unlike a TH350 or TH400 where the 2nd clutches stay engaged and the 3rd gear clutch then "stack shift" on top of them. No matter what you do on a TH350 or 400 to speed the 3rd gear shift, it isn't an issue, because there isn't any real timing involving releasing another element.

The 200 and 700 shift has to be timed, so that the band releases as the 3rd clutches apply. If the 2nd band releases too soon then the transmission will have a "flair" which will feel like it is slipping, however it is actually a momentary return to 1st gear.

There should be an overlap between the band releasing and the 3rd cltuches applying, so that you get a clean shift.

If this overlap becomes to great, the trans is effectively in two gears at once. 2nd and 3rd. It acts somewhat like a trans-brake. In severe case you will actually be able to hear and feel the motor lug on the shift. If the car is on a lift you will see the tires stop, as the shift takes place.

This causes extreme stress on the friction elements as they work against each other, and this is why the forward drum must be the billet unit for a dual fed 200-4R. To make a firm shift you will have just enough overlap so that moment of release of the band coincides with the moment of lockup of the 3rd clutches. There will be a bit of crossover that will strain the forward drum at WOT shifts. It will snap the stock drum.

 

It is an easily corrected problem on the 200-4R, the band release orifice has to be properly sized so that the band releases quicker. However you often have to start from a known point and drop the pan a couple of times to get it perfect.

Most local shops aren't going to understand this and won't mess with it.

Chris at CKPerformance in car tests each unit before it leaves. So warranty issues should be few as long as the installer gets the geometry setup correctly for the TV cable.

MIke Kurtz is well known as a 200-4R builder and will know these things. There are really only a couple of handfuls of decent 200-4R builders and that's the issue with using this transmission.

 

Most shops have done THOUSANDS of 700's so are more comfortable doing them, but you will find that many offer no warranty for a performance unit.[/quote']

 

Will the 200-4R 2-3 shift timings change over time? If so, how often will they need adjustments?

[Guest Mike]

The 200 tranny is better than the 700r4 for gearing reasons. I purchased a 700r4/Corvette transmission from a member here. I believe I have had it for 5 years and have had it rebuilt once.

 

I am running a 383 Sbc in my 240Z. I drive the car frequently and drag race it often. I do not spray nitrous yet but I run high 10's with little or no problems at all. Set it up right and you will be good to go. Key is the set up as mentioned in an earlier post.

 

Mike

 

High 10's?? Wow... I doubt mine is running any better than high 12's right now. It really needs tuning... the engine' date=' suspension, gearing... you name it. I'm hoping to run mid 11's soon though.[/color']

 

I've heard many times that 700R4's 2nd gear is too close to 1st. After reading these posts, I've decided to go for a 200-4R instead.

 

I'm hoping to find a local shop that will do the job right and give me a warranty. If not, I'll buy one from one of the well-known builders and have it installed... making sure the mechanic knows how to tune the shift points, of course.

 

You guys are truly educating me and preventing me from making costly miskrates. I DO APPRECIATE IT!!!

[Mike kZ]

Thanks jimszx. Can you point me to some tech info on how to adjust the TC Cable?

 

This may help: http://www.tvmadeez.com/article/index.php

[Guest Mike]

This may help: http://www.tvmadeez.com/article/index.php

 

This is great... THANKS!!

[jakeshoe]

Mike,

No issues with shift timing changing over time, it would take a significant change in the operating clearances (band and 3rd clutch) to cause a change in the shifting. The clutches would be worn beyond use to create this amount of clearance.

 

These clearances do affect initial setup, as the band clearance could vary widely but any good builder will set band clearance within a reasonable spec.

Band clearance has a greater effect because the 2nd gear servo acts as the 3rd gear accumulator.

The band has to be "kicked off" by 3rd gear feed oil. So the oil has to simultaneously force the servo to the "off" position and feed the direct drum.

The tighter the band clearance, the less movement the servo is capable of, so less oil it will consume to release it on a 2-3 shift. Less oil consumed by the servo = more oil goes to the directs, which makes a quicker apply.

[Guest Mike]

Mike' date='

No issues with shift timing changing over time, it would take a significant change in the operating clearances (band and 3rd clutch) to cause a change in the shifting. The clutches would be worn beyond use to create this amount of clearance.

 

These clearances do affect initial setup, as the band clearance could vary widely but any good builder will set band clearance within a reasonable spec.

Band clearance has a greater effect because the 2nd gear servo acts as the 3rd gear accumulator.

The band has to be "kicked off" by 3rd gear feed oil. So the oil has to simultaneously force the servo to the "off" position and feed the direct drum.

The tighter the band clearance, the less movement the servo is capable of, so less oil it will consume to release it on a 2-3 shift. Less oil consumed by the servo = more oil goes to the directs, which makes a quicker apply.[/quote']

 

Thanks jakeshoe. No worries then:grin:

[jimszx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike

Thanks jimszx. Can you point me to some tech info on how to adjust the TC Cable?

 

 

This may help: http://www.tvmadeez.com/article/index.php

__________________

Mike Kz beat me to it.

[Guest Mike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike

Thanks jimszx. Can you point me to some tech info on how to adjust the TC Cable?

 

 

This may help: http://www.tvmadeez.com/article/index.php

__________________

Mike Kz beat me to it.

 

Very good!! THANKS!!

[A. G. Olphart]

Mike-- Not knowing where in Taxas you are, I'll hope that you are local to this guy since regular transmission shops are not a great idea for performance 200R-4s:

Century Transmissions and Automotive

Mike Kurtz

811 PLANTATON DR

Richmond, Texas 77469

(281) 633-8155

MAKURTZ@SBCGLOBAL.NET

 

As he's in Texas also, it can't be too far.

 

A little farther away is a fellow who has written a book on doing it right:

CK Performance (Christoforos Kokkinos) http://ckperformance.com/

CK PERFORMANCE RACING AUTOMATICS USA

9-16 37TH AVENUE L.I.C. NY 11101

718-784-4256-PHONE/718-784-4252-FAX

TRANNYMAN0101@AOL.COM

 

 

A good 200R-4 forum: http://turbobuick.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=12

 

 

.

[Guest Mike]

Mike-- Not knowing where in Taxas you are' date=' I'll hope that you are local to this guy since regular transmission shops are not a great idea for performance 200R-4s:

Century Transmissions and Automotive

Mike Kurtz

811 PLANTATON DR

Richmond, Texas 77469

(281) 633-8155

MAKURTZ@SBCGLOBAL.NET

 

As he's in Texas also, it can't be too far.

 

A little farther away is a fellow who has written a book on doing it right:

CK Performance (Christoforos Kokkinos) http://ckperformance.com/

CK PERFORMANCE RACING AUTOMATICS USA

9-16 37TH AVENUE L.I.C. NY 11101

718-784-4256-PHONE/718-784-4252-FAX

TRANNYMAN0101@AOL.COM

 

 

A good 200R-4 forum: http://turbobuick.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=12

 

 

.

 

Thanks A.G.

 

I'm looking for a reputible specialty shop in the very near vacinity that will warranty their work. One shop listed is only about three hours drive from me. What worries me is the warranty. I'm only guessing, but I suspect it would cost a couple hundred dollars to have the car transported to his shop if the transmission fails. Of course, it may be worth the distance-related expenses:confused:

[ferreido]

I have a Art Carr built 200-4R in my 1981 280ZX. The only thing I don't like about the gearbox is the fact that it shifts about 400 RPM lower as the gears shift up (2nd at 5200, 3rd at 4800 & 4th at 4400).

I am not sure if this is always the case. I just manual overide when doing a 1/4 mile (14.4s) 3500lb car with 250hp crate motor.