E85--try it, you'll like it!

[jt1]

At one time in NC, your could get a permit from the Dept. of Revenue to distill ethanol for use as a fuel. I don't know if that program is currently active or not. Essentially it is a liquor still, using fruit, corn, etc.

 

I've got an old 302 SBC that's a high compression race motor, 12 to 1 or so. I've been having thoughts about freshening it up and trying some E85 in it. It would be an interesting project.

 

John

[ToplessZ]

If you are looking for the truth about the worlds fuel consumption read "Plan B 2.0" by Lester Brown. Here is a small excerpt “If China’s economy continues to expand at 8 percent a year, its income per person will reach the current U.S. level in 2031. “If at that point China’s per capita resource consumption were the same as in the United States today, then its projected 1.45 billion people would consume the equivalent of two thirds of the current world grain harvest. China’s paper consumption would be double the world’s current production. There go the world’s forests.†If China one day has three cars for every four people, U.S. style, it will have 1.1 billion cars. The whole world today has 800 million cars. To provide the roads, highways, and parking lots to accommodate such a vast fleet, China would have to pave an area equal to the land it now plants in rice. It would need 99 million barrels of oil a day. Yet the world currently produces 84 million barrels per day and may never produce much more. The western economic model of a fuel-based, auto-centered, throwaway economy—is not going to work for China. If it does not work for China, it will not work for India, which by 2031 is projected to have a population even larger than China’s. Nor will it work for the 3 billion other people in developing countries who are also dreaming the “American dream.â€

[ToplessZ]

Furthermore, the production of ethonal requires much water. A plant slotted to open in PA, will require 526 million gallons of water per year. This will compete with the already faltering supply of water needed to support our production efficiency of grain through irragation. With the Ogallala Aquifer drying up faster then most people realize, production is going to falter sooner than later. When oil production slows which could happen sooner then what most people think, the Grain market will find itself being fought over between consumers wanting to buy the grain for fuel production and consumers needing to import it to keep their nation alive. I am not a tree hugger, I just read and study facts. I do believe that we need to wake up not just as a country but as a global economy and realize just what we are setting ourselves up for when it comes to the depletion of resources. This is not something that will be a problem 50 years from now, this has the potential to be catostrophic withing the next ten years or less. With nearly everything down to candy, being subsidized, we do not realize that most things would not be affordable to the common person. This includes gas, which without subsidies and considering military costs, would be close to $9 a gallon. America does not have the funds to keep subsidizing everything under the sun unless China keeps underwriting the debt. At some point they will stop, like most other foreign investors already have, and then the large majority of this country will be unable to afford the scarce resources that are left to be fought over between Americans and perhaps other countries that are fast becoming unable to meet their (grain, paper, oil, etc...) production needs.

[Pop N Wood]

Amen brother.

 

I noticed Consumer Reports did an issue with the lead article about their experiences and testing of an E85 vehicle.

 

Not very flattering.

[BrandonsZ]

... fought over between Americans and perhaps other countries that are fast becoming unable to meet their (grain, paper, oil, etc...) production needs.

 

You just predicted the big war, over resources, the question is when. Right now it's mostly economic, wait till it gets serious. 30 years? Who knows.

 

Sorry, E85 is great if it can be made with less pollution to our environmnt than Oil; that's my main point.

[ToplessZ]

Well Brandon I did not want to over elaborate, Yes this is all going to bring about a whole new relm of geopolitics and I cannot Imagine a war over scarce resources being avoidable considering the current trends. Not that past wars have not had energy oriented aspects as underlying hidden motives. However I must adamantly disagree that because E85 produces less polution it is a good solution. The cost to produce E85 it is high and when combined with the possibility of grain scarcity, it will cost as much or more to purchase then the cost of the scarce oil it replaced. E85 and other bio-fuels are also less efficient then gasoline by far, they require huge amounts of water to produce which is a fast growing problem, and it contributes to rising food costs and scarcity. That said, while being much better for the environment that would be the least of the concerns in regards to full fledged E85 and bio-fuel production. Read the stats you will be amazed about how E85 is just another way to contribute to the problem rather then the solution. Forgive me if this is harsh but I am sick of much expert research being hidden and avoided when it comes to educating the general public about energy concerns. If we continue our growth as a world of resource depleting consumers, it will not take 30 years for the most important resources of all to be depleted to the point that some consuming nations will have to be eliminated in order to leave enough supply for the others. I for one do not want to have to deal with these concerns at the age of 54 even if it did take 30 years to come about.

[ToplessZ]

Brandon do not take this the wrong way as I am not picking on you. However, your arguement is one of the main arguements for E85 production and is what the general public thinks about based on what they are told concerning overall benefits. The truth is that your average person knows as much about E85 production as the GM commercials show, this is just the tip of the iceberg and does not include all the negatives that come along with it.

[Pop N Wood]

Interesting and brief synopsis.

 

http://www.carbon-info.org/carbonscience/carbonscience_008.htm

 

Had never really thought of the water aspects. something Californian's have been living with for decades.

[ToplessZ]

I think the above website has great information but still does not cover the issue of grain and water shortages that are inevitable at the world's current pace of usage.

[BrandonsZ]

If you take the equation of E85:

 

Water+Hunger+Energy+Pollution+Global Warming+Land Useage+Distribution+Political Agenda = X

 

(I may have forgotten some)

 

IMO

 

It is clear that by judging the relative magnitudes of these parts of the discrete linear equation,

 

[Political Agenda] is >> Water scarcity, Pollution, Hunger, Global Warming, Land Usage, and Distribution combined.

 

The only terms on the list that come close to the magnitude of the [Political Agenda] is the [Energy] + [Pollution].

 

Knowing it's a [sticky] clear way to get this thread into the tool shed if we even mention Politics, I will have to defend or objurgate [Political Agenda] on another forum. (look it up).

 

Being somewhat of a pragmatist, who understands that many of the aforementioned items matter little to many of our particular day to day existences on this rock:

 

The following statements apply to the ENTIRETY of the creation of E85 on a PER MILE usage basis in MY car as a DIRECT comparison the ENTIRETY of the creation of 87 gasoline PER MILE USAGE in MY car:: (ashes to ashes, dust to dust)

 

-IF-

 

E85 creates less pollution then Petrol.

 

-AND-

 

More importantly IF in the entire process of EVERYTHING that makes E85 cause my car to go (from planting the seed to pealing the tires out), IF it uses less energy per mile.

 

-THEN-

 

I support it.

 

-ELSE-

 

Screw it! I'm not geeked-out just for the ideal of hugging trees.

 

Am I clear?

[ToplessZ]

Great response Brandon. However, E 85 takes much energy to produce including the use of fossil fuels. It will burn cleaner. As far as helping you peel the tires well thats what we are here for!

...it actually takes more energy to produce ethanol than the petroleum-derived energy it saves when accounted on a “field-to-wheel†basis. However, according to the Department of Energy’s Argonne National Laboratory, if 100 BTUs of energy are used to plant corn, harvest the crop, transport it, and so on, 138 BTUs of energy are available in the fuel ethanol produced – a 38 percent increase in energy availability... They fail to mention that you will also get up to 34 % fewer miles to the gallon.

[BrandonsZ]

Thanks.

 

So it was just a matter of stating my assumptions, before making a statement.

 

Now all we really need is plans for a solar distillery. There's lots of sunshine here in So Cal. Pennies from heaven if you like.

 

All this discussion is fine but aren't we all here to ?

[Pop N Wood]

However, according to the Department of Energy’s Argonne National Laboratory, if 100 BTUs of energy are used to plant corn, harvest the crop, transport it, and so on, 138 BTUs of energy are available in the fuel ethanol produced – a 38 percent increase in energy availability... They fail to mention that you will also get up to 34 % fewer miles to the gallon.

 

But if you are measuring the energy content in BTU than the 34% fewer miles per gallon are already taken into account. It takes more gallons of ethanol to get the same BTU's of energy as a gallon of gas.

 

There are numerous contradictory studies about the energy gain or loss from ethanol production.

 

BTW, it is completely legal to distill ethanol for fuel. This site has the government permit form you need to fill in. More interestingly, that same site says you can get tax credits for pure ethanol used by a buisness. So distill your own fuel and the government will pay you to run your trucks on it. I didn't know that.

[Pop N Wood]

This site has several guides detailing how to switch a car to run pure ethanol

 

http://www.green-trust.org/ethanol.htm