Guest Mike Posted December 26, 2006 Share Posted December 26, 2006 Hi All. I've been busy so I haven't posted for awhile. It's great to be back on good ol' hybridz!! The perenthetically encapsulated words in the title are to aid those folks searching for related topics. I've been researching options for H2O & Methanol Injection and N2O. I do realize that these are already covered in old posts. I found those here and at a few other sites but I'm mixing my goals and technologies. Also... there are a gazillion opinions out there. I'm trying to find the right BALANCE of ECONOMY AND PERFORMANCE. I want REASONABLE fuel economy and as much "WOT" performance as I can muster with what I already have and a few new components. I have dual quad carbs so I bought a ZEX dual plate N2O system. The problem with using alcohol as the added fuel is that it will destroy the aluminum plates. So... I'll utilize the plate "fuel" injection for H2O instead and add a separate methanol injection system through the dual carb hats. Since the alcohol injectors will be farther away from the intake than the N2O plates, I'll need to delay spray of N2O until the alcohol has time to travel the additional 12+ inches. H2O INJECTION (purpose) - * For Fuel Economy - Use for antiknock and cooling so I can run lean AFR throughout the RPM range. This is a PROGRESSIVELY CONTROLLED system based solely on RPM. METHANOL INJECTION (Octane On Demand) - * Use with H2O injection at WOT WITHOUT N2O for moderate performance boost while saving use of N2O for those "emergency situations". * Use with H2O injection at WOT WITH N2O (as the added fuel) for substantial performance boost. NOTE: Perhaps pure methanol is better?? The idea is to take advantage of methanol's huge octane rating and excellent cylinder cooling properties to safely allow more N2O injection (150HP with hypereutectic pistons). FAILSAFE DEVICES - * Fuel flow sensors - On H2O injection, gasoline, and methanol lines * O2 sensor - To monitor AFR * EGT sensor - (keep at ~900 C degrees or lower) *** Any device sensing unsafe conditions will shut down N2O QUESTION #1: How long should I delay N2O in relation to the alcohol to ensure the alcohol reaches the cylinders BEFORE the N2O? Assume N2O is activate at 2500 RPM at WOT. Is it safe to assume that immediate WOT methanol activation provides enough elapsed time? QUESTION #2: Should I mix H2O injection with methanol injection for WOT performance and WITHOUT N2O... if so, at what ratio (25:75 H2O:meth)? Or is pure methanol better for WOT performance? QUESTION #3: Same as question #2 WITH N2O. 260Z 355 Gen1 SBC ~350 FWHP N/A 10.5: Hyper Pristons Moderate Street Cam (barely works w/ stock torque converter) Edelbrock RPM Heads (unmodified) 1.6 Ratio Roller Rockers 150 HP N2O (dual plate ZEX) Dual 500 CFM Edelbrock AFR's on RPM Airgap Intake TH350 Trans (soon to be 4L80E) 3.9:1 R200 Diff I hope this isn't overly convoluded. Please feel free to ping if I need to clarify anything. THANKS!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
510six Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 I was told that if I was using the methanol under boost and wanting the added octain that 100% was best.If the aluminum is hard anodized and Klotz fuel additive is used there should be no ill effects using the methanol with the aluminum plate.I would contact ZEX.Black Hard anodized fittings are used by many race cars using methanol. http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2071134/5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 510six... Wow, that's great news. From what I gathered reading other threads, I thought using more than a 50:50 mix of water:methanol through ANY aluminum was an absolute no-no. I assume that anodization wouldn't help much. I'll call ZEX and ask for their advice. There seems to be no consensus regarding what ratio is best but, like you, I get te feeling that pure alcohol is best. If that's the case, I'll run progressive water injection at all times except at WOT at which time I'll switch to alcohol. The idea is to save fuel, methanol, and N2O costs but have as much perfomance as I can get at WOT. N2O is reserved for those... "emergencies" because it costs approximately $4 for every spray (quarter mile). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
510six Posted December 31, 2006 Share Posted December 31, 2006 Black anodized aluminum has excellent corrosion resistanance to methanol.That`s why all of my methanol AN fittings are either black or nickle plated.Dichromate steel fitting offer good corrosion resistance to methanol as well.I am getting my info from AEM engineers who have done extensive studies in using methanol/water as an intercooler through fuel injectors in the intake tract.I was told that adding up to 30% distilled water would maximize the cooling benifits, but if octain was needed as well 100% was recomended.I will try to get the graph off of my tuners laptop so you can see exactly how much the methanol cools the intake charge and how it allowed for 6* more timing to be added and thats at 30% of methanol as the avalable fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted December 31, 2006 Share Posted December 31, 2006 I haven't looked at the parts yet but I think these are purple or some odd thing. I'll bet I could have someone removed the anodization, then plate them in nickel. Problem solved!! A post or link of the graph would be great... thanks!! Black anodized aluminum has excellent corrosion resistanance to methanol.That`s why all of my methanol AN fittings are either black or nickle plated.Dichromate steel fitting offer good corrosion resistance to methanol as well.I am getting my info from AEM engineers who have done extensive studies in using methanol/water as an intercooler through fuel injectors in the intake tract.I was told that adding up to 30% distilled water would maximize the cooling benifits, but if octain was needed as well 100% was recomended.I will try to get the graph off of my tuners laptop so you can see exactly how much the methanol cools the intake charge and how it allowed for 6* more timing to be added and thats at 30% of methanol as the avalable fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
510six Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 The anodizing with work to prevent the corrosion of methanol.The purple may also be hard anodizing.I would talk to ZEX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Thanks!! I'll call ZEX before I do anything else. Woo hoo!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 I finally heard from ZEX. I guess the customer service guy had to research this too. He tells me their aluminum plates CANNOT take the methanol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrayZee Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 If the guy is not really sure of the true answer, he is gonna tell you it wont work just to cover his rear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 Sorry to resurrect my old thread again... My plans may change. I might drop the idea of NO2 completely and opt for more cubes instead... a BBC 572. If I stick with the SBC 434, I'm going to get a second opinion regarding the ZEX plates and alcohol. If they won't handle the methanol as-is, I may have them stripped and hard anodized or maybe chrome plated... THAT should do the trick!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 I've been researching "octane on demand" and some say a mix of methanol and toluene works better than 100% methanol. I'm still undecided... Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 I doubt it, methanol and N2O go together like a hand in a glove. Leave toluene for painters. Nothing like 150 octane rating of methanol along with it's high latent heat of vaporazation to cool the intake charge way down to the point of icing the manifold!!!! I use nickle plated steel fittings, anodized aeroquip fittings and I've never had a problem with corrosion of the aluminum. If you leave liquid methanol on the aluminum for extended periods of time, you will have a problem at some point. I haven't reached that point yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 Ahh... Okay great!! I'll strip and nickel plate those suckers. An easy/workable/affordable resolution is achieved for the methanol corosion issue. Happy happy, joy joy!! Now... do I opt for the SBC 434 w/ NO2... or the BBC 572 N/A? Both are sure to kick-azz. The thought of either one makes my shorts tighten with anticipatory delight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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