lilredZ Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 This is a cool group. Do you guys ever meet up? Anyway, I just bought a beautiful (show quality) 1973 240z with a 337" Ford motor. This was built correctly. Ballanced and well engineered. The guy spared no expense. It has a 4.03 bore and 3.3 stroke in a C4 289w block. Its flowing 250 cfm intake with >.5" lift. The estimated HP is 400+. She runs low 12s all day with mufler and 11.8 without at 119 mph. My simple objective is to run 11.5 with muffler/s...so I am guessing a 50-100 Hp boost will do it. The engine has street fuelable 9.2 to1 compression. After reading many warnings about blowing this block I am thinking about going with the 300 cfm flow heads... I don't want to do nitrous...not sure why but... I come from the old school of tuners where N2 was sortof cheating and your tuner should be able to rake any production car. Now with these modern cars this is not so practical but I do need to spank Z06s...and that will require another 50-100 hp to be absolutely sure that the only Z06 that will walk from me has to be a tuned one... Any thoughts are appreciated... Newbie, lilredZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MY77Z Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Hi lilredZ and welcome here sounds like a strong Z you've got, would you write more details about the car please, a nice list of mods would be cool and photos too. about your 50-100 additional HP you want, i would say supercharger with high boost capacity so if you ever think about passing the 600+HP, you wouldn't need to buy a new unit. for now, set the boost to what you want. and why not NITROUS? i love it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilredZ Posted April 10, 2007 Author Share Posted April 10, 2007 Ling to our blog: You can click on the pictures to make them larger: http://osgoods.blogspot.com/2007/04/my-1973-datsun-240z.html Ok...for a list of mods: 289 Sm Block (1964 -040E-6015C) 337 cu in Bore = 4.03" Stroke = 3.3" 302 Ford Crank KB178 Pistons 17cc Audi 5.35" Sm. Jnl connecting rods 62cc chamber .002" deck Brodix Track1 Ford Heads Intake= 2.055 Exhaust = 1.6 Cam .547" Lift Hydrodyne Intake Flows 250 CFM @ .5" lift 6:1 rockers on solid lifters 9.2:1 Compression Gary Williams 820 CFM Holley Carb Victor Jr. Intake Manifold Custom Oil Pan MSD Ignition Est. 400+ HP Ford C4 tranny with Gear Vendors Over/Under (making it like a 6 spd) R200 Rear End 3.5 Ratio Roll Cage with 4 point seat harnesses Racing seats Koni Suspension Wilwood custom Brakes with 12.18" front and 11.4" Rear rotors I know this motor is set up for Nitrous but I've never run nitrous before and don't know enough about setting up timing etc...Is there a kit that will adjust the timing for me? Do I have to run an additional fuel pump? I don't think this block will take more than 500 Hp but I don't necessarilly need more than 500 HP...so many options but I want to beef it up a bit. It runs solid 12.4 ETs with the exhaust (mufflers) on but runs 11.8 without it. I want to be able to run 11.5 or faster with the mufflers on so Nitrous sounds very attractive...I may just do a Nitrous kit with a little more encouragement and some reading... Thanks for the reply, lilredZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MY77Z Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 WOOOOOOW, i love the car and a very very very clean engine bay well, if you only want an additional 75HP, i dont think you have to change anything except for the timing, your timing should be between 8 to 10 degrees, i dont think you need an extra fuel pump for a 75hp shot, if you go 100hp and more, the inline boost pump from NOS (15763NOS) is a good one. on my 302, my timing is set at 8 degrees with stock spark plugs (gapped at 0.32) and 98oct pump gas (kuwait) for my 75HP shot, i haven't tryed to install the 150HP jets yet, maybe next week, i only have one Bosch fuel pump and its working great with the 75HP shot, not sure if it will be enough for the 150hp shot, i'll have to check it on the dyno . but let me tell you dude, even with the 75HP shot, you will have alot of fun i think shaving 0.9 second on you ET will not be a difficult task. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Shasteen Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 These are my thoughts off the top of my head. To run Nitrous or a Supercharger efficiently - your Static Comp. needs to be in the 8.0:1 to 8.5:1 range. Plus, you will need to run a cam whose overlap compliments your Nitrous or Supercharger. Your current set up is probably at the 400 FWHP as you already stated. You could get another 50hp if you upped your Static from the 9.2:1 to the 10.0:1 and run a bigger cam w/more overlap than you have now: but this will push your peak rpm a little higher also (dont know if you are wanting to do that or not?). I am assuming your engine builder new what they were doing from your description of how well it runs - your cam is currently set up for a moderate N/A performance engine. If you go w/better breathing heads, higher compression, and a slightly larger cam - dont use a cam w/more than 50 to 60 degrees overlap for pump gas: this will put your engine in the weekend warrior range which isnt as much fun if this is your daily driver. You can go either way, compressor or N/A, and get addt'l hp but either way you will need to adjust your Static and cam in order to compliment your choice. Just out of curiosity - what are the cam specs to the cam your engine has in it now for the LSA and Duration? Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilredZ Posted April 11, 2007 Author Share Posted April 11, 2007 The cam specs are: Ultradyne Duration at .050 - 235In / 235Ex Lobe Lift .3419In / .3419 Ex Lobe Sep. 110 Deg. Seat Duration at .020 264In 264Ex Gross Valve Lift .547In .547Ex Valve lash .016In .016Ex Seat Timing (I'm not sure about these numbers because I can't read it very well) Intake 27 BTDC 57 ATDC 104 Deg Exh 67BTDC 17ATDC 116 Deg Thanks for the input. Nitrous sounds good. I heard you can get a Nitrous kit that will electronically adjust the timing. Any recomendations for a 75-100 hp nitrous kit for this Holly carb set up? Is there anyone else here in N. Calif? Do you have a page where people talk about their performance (i.e. 1/8 or 1/4 mi. times)? lilredZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshB 240Z Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 lilredZ, I've seen your car up close and it's well built. There are several people in the Bay Area with V8's and a few with Ford engines in them. I've been running a 302 for a few years but don't spend too much time at any of the local gatherings. I installed a stock 5.0L engine from a 1990 Mustang GT and pretty much left it stock. In that form the car ran 13.1 @ 110mph without too much effort. The car is used for autocrossing so the suspension is setup for corners and not drag race launches and traction at launch is limited. Because of this launches are in 2nd gear and anything more than idle results in tire spin. Two years ago I bought an old style Paxton supercharger and installed it. The first few times at the track the car ran about the same ET's with the mph closer to the 117-119 mark. The last time we took it to the strip I ran a 12.50 @ 119mph, again starting in 2nd and rolling into the gas once moving. With the mph in the 120 range I'm sure the car could run faster with a harder launch. The supercharger added quite a bit of power and it's only pushing 5psi. All of this on a 9:1 stock engine so I would expect that even a very mild supercharger would give you the extra 50-100hp you're looking for with your current build. More gains could be possible with better optimization of your components for use with the supercharger like cam, heads and fueling. Welcome to the group! Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilredZ Posted April 12, 2007 Author Share Posted April 12, 2007 Thanks for the excellent advice. I am leaning towards a supercharger for 2 reasons: 1. It will fit 2. It's adjustable and always on and shouldn't require much maintenance....ok thats 4 reasons... John, Do you know "Dave". He built this car. I would like to work on the suspension after I am done with the engine and interior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshB 240Z Posted April 12, 2007 Share Posted April 12, 2007 lilredZ, I never met the owner of the car. I had a chance to look at it quite a bit at a car show at Blackhawk last summer. Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatejoefitz Posted April 12, 2007 Share Posted April 12, 2007 Awesome car! Any idea what brand/model seats those are? Is there no cage in that beast? -Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilredZ Posted April 13, 2007 Author Share Posted April 13, 2007 thanks...yes it has a rollcage and i'll find out what the seats are... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gr8White Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 These are my thoughts off the top of my head. To run Nitrous or a Supercharger efficiently - your Static Comp. needs to be in the 8.0:1 to 8.5:1 range. This is simply not true. While static compression certainly has an effect on efficiency, it's fuel and timing that will determine how efficient the combination will ultimately be- and how long the motor will take the abuse. 13:1 engines work great with nitrous oxide, and you can guarantee that the 13:1 engine will outperform the 8.0:1 engine, and by a huge margin- provided the tune is good. Even supercharged motors can operate in the 11:1 range very effectively- and there are many that do this in lieu of the old school thought of low compression with boost. Compression is a small factor in comparison to fuel and timing. The new stand alone engine management systems such as the F.A.S.T. system have made compression a non-factor, or at least minimal as compared to the fuel/timing curve..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilredZ Posted May 3, 2007 Author Share Posted May 3, 2007 i need to be able to run pump gas. i do not want to increase the compression beyond its current 9.2:1 because i like the idea of running pump gas...i'm not looking to push this block beyond 500 hp because its a 64 ford 289 and from what i've read, it wont handle >500 too well... i found a blow through supercharger that will fit. i will have to buy the 850 cfm carb from them (Paxton) as well. total cost = $4k...for 100-125 added HP. then i have to tune the exhaust which will cost another $2k so i think this is what i'm going to do...although i am open to opinions and feedback since i am so new at this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gr8White Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 i need to be able to run pump gas. i do not want to increase the compression beyond its current 9.2:1 because i like the idea of running pump gas...i'm not looking to push this block beyond 500 hp because its a 64 ford 289 and from what i've read, it wont handle >500 too well... i found a blow through supercharger that will fit. i will have to buy the 850 cfm carb from them (Paxton) as well. total cost = $4k...for 100-125 added HP. then i have to tune the exhaust which will cost another $2k so i think this is what i'm going to do...although i am open to opinions and feedback since i am so new at this. 9.2:1 is fine. If you keep this at or below 500 you should be OK, just remember that it won't survive at that power level without a good tune. Fuel shouldn't be an issue with the carb either...You should be able to run 6-8 lbs. without issue, which would be equivalent to the 100-125 hp gain you mention. You should look into the Vortech kits too. I have had very good results with my Vortech and the kits are complete down to the last clamp. Very good support too. In my experience the Centrifugal blowers are better on parts and head gaskets than the roots or whipplechargers. They also tend to be softer at launch which will help in traction limited applications, while being superior at the top end.. We all know these Z's suffer from that. Good choice. Good luck as well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilredZ Posted May 4, 2007 Author Share Posted May 4, 2007 now i'm really confused because a local tuner and z builder recommended pulling the whole motor and going with an LS2 motor...his opinion is that the blower causes all sorts of problems...he first mentioned the carb being under pressure etc... he didn't seem to have any more specific reasons but i tend to follow conventional wisdom if it's well founded...but i'm going to get the paxton carb (850 cfm)...and it seems this should work...right? i hate to sound so ignorant but this is not a cheap sport and i want this done right...i have no problems experimenting with less expensive stuff but $4k is a bunch of money to have to shelf if it doesn't work.... worst case i can think of is that it blows something in the motor...in which case i keep the components and buy another (better built) motor...i will have to ask paxton what other motors this will work on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z24O Posted May 4, 2007 Share Posted May 4, 2007 personally,if you are looking at forced induction,i would go the turbo route for the following reasons: -you probably only need low psi so the turbo won't be working hard...see reliable combo - it doesn't take anywhere near the hp to run a supercharger - it will be much easier on the gas(no parasitic drain) -you can adjust the boost/hp with the turn of a valve(wastegate) -it will be quieter....see stealth mode -you won't notice the off-boost lag as you have good comp with low boost -you probably won't need an intercooler with low boost -power won't come on like a lightswitch and destroy all hope of traction now for the downside..... -i wouldn't go blow thru carb with a turbo,so you will need the later fuel injection setup(bigger injectors tho)and the ancillary engine management system -probably more expensive for a decent plumbing job,stay away from ebay "kits" have a look on turbomustang.com good luck either way paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spraguepsycho1 Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 I notived you are only running 3.50 gears in the rear, have you thought about possibly just trying a set of 3.90's or 4.11's in the diff? Is the rear diff a limited slip unit, or an open diff? IS it unloading the tires when you launch, or does it hook up hard and just rocket off the line? From the discription you gave of the engine, it sounds like you should easily have enough power to get into the low to mid 11's with the full exhaust hooked up as long as the rest of the drivetrain/suspension combo is set up right. I'd look for other more cost effective ways to make the power you already have more efficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilredZ Posted June 7, 2007 Author Share Posted June 7, 2007 It's running the Limited Slip R200. It barely squeels the tires...so it hooks up pretty well but it will slip .1 second off the 1/4 mile time if the tires break...This is evident on the time slip at the 60 ft mark... I am going to try to put nitrous 100 shot just to see if the block will handle an additional 50-100 hp. This is a relatively low cost and safe way to test it from what i've read so far. Do you know where I can get 4:11 gears for this differentail. I am relatively new to this type of car...old chevy guy...I used to have a chevy monza with a punched out 327 (carb on fuelie 2.02 heads)...it was fast but this car is scary fast...handles like a dream...I have a 2003 BMW and it feels like a truck compared to this Z. I appreciate your feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spraguepsycho1 Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 Zcarsource.com lists those gears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 how do you get yours to hook mine spins all the way up till about 60-70mph it doesnt matter at what speed below 60 you hit it it will break lose. No dought the car is still hauling butt, but I cant keep mine from spinning. What size tires are you guys running, rims, etc.? I still have the r180 rear end in mine so maybe its the gears? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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