RPMS Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 Howdy, Guys! I was a junkyard dog this entire weekend, and I loved it! The local self-serve yard was having a 1/2 off sale, and I went crazy. Now that all this crap is in my garage, I need to tap the collective wisdom of the group... I couldn't find a 350 that was in decent shape, so I pulled a 305 out of a 1984 Camaro. This motor is my test mule, and I need it to function for about six months, during which time I'll be building up my 350. In other words, I want it to run, but not invest a bunch of money into it that I'd be happier putting into the 350. Once home, I pulled the valve covers off and discovered a valvetrain that seemed fine, except for one small addition - a 22 caliber cartridge just sitting in there. I wonder how THAT got in there??? The heads are stamped 14014416. Mortec lists that as having intake/exhaust valves that are 1.84"/1.5" in diameter, with 58cc combustion chambers. I didn't know they MADE a 58cc combustion chamber. Isn't that awfully small? On the side of the left head, there's a seal that says "Warranty void if removed". Is that telling me that these are rebuilt heads, do you think? I didn't think anything came like that from the factory... The radiator I pulled out of the same car is waaay too wide to fit between the frame rails. Can I set it on top of the rails and angle it back 30 degrees or so to take advantage of the larger surface area? God knows, there's going to be plenty of space to play with in front of the engine, especially since I'll be using the electric fan out of a Taurus instead of an engine driven fan. Do you think this will adequately cool? The plugs look like the mixture was a bit rich, but otherwise good. No coolant, rust, or oil on them. When I pulled the intake, I found about two dozen oddly shaped broken plastic pieces in the valley, and the bottom of the intake was deeply scored in a couple of places. The marks were fresh - no old oil baked onto them. Should I just run a couple of batches of oil through the engine, then fill it with good stuff and run it, letting the oil filters catch any crap? Or do y'all think I should pull the pan and examine the bearings before trying to start it again? The assembly turns quite smoothly by hand, if that means anything. I've gotta tell you - I'm stoked about this. I feel like I'm several big steps closer to getting my project car on the road! I'm also a bit nervous, since this IS the first American engine I've ever worked on. Any advice y'all could give me will be greatly appreciated. It'll be an emotional setback if this thing blows up the first time I try to start it! Scott Ferguson 1974 500-Z - look at it as one BIG puzzle with very heavy pieces... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 Could the plastic in the valley be pieces of a plastic coated cam sprocket? I'd pull the pan and check the bearings. Also take the cover off of the oil pump to make sure there's no plastic in the gears. If it was pieces of cam sprocket plastic, I'd be concerned the chain jumped. If it did, the vavles might have had a too-close relationship with the pistons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavyZ Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 Also, if you have the time, pull the damper and put a new timing chain in place. You may not even need to do that, though since this is a temporary motor. Does the motor spin/crank turns? Take Pete's advice about checking for the plastic--make sure it wasn't a gear. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPMS Posted March 19, 2001 Author Share Posted March 19, 2001 Pete, Davy, thanks for the advice. I think that there's a very good chance that it might be part of the timing gear. When I grab hold of the front pulley and rotate it back and forth, there's about a degree of free play that might indicate a worn/loose timing chain. I had forgotten that the timing gear was plastic coated until you mentioned it. The pieces are about the same shade of dark tan as a piece of cardboard. If the timing gear looks in good shape, I'll take a picture of the shards and post them. Anyone have any ideas about the "warranty void if removed" seal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Shasteen Posted March 20, 2001 Share Posted March 20, 2001 If the .22 shell was in the cyl.head does that mean that cyl.head is "Shot"...sorry/couldnt refuse a cheap laugh. If you've got the engine out just go ahead & rpl the timing gears/chain w/a steal set. You dont have to go crazy & buy a True Roller; but they are cheap enough/just the reassurance of knowing your engine will last the 6 mo's w/out jumping gears should be worth that much. Any maintenance should be done while the eng. is out. Gaskets; T-stat...ect,ect. Kevin, (Yes,Still an Inliner) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPMS Posted March 20, 2001 Author Share Posted March 20, 2001 Pete, Last night I pulled the oilpan and took a peek at the bottom end. As it turns out, you were right on the money regarding the plastic camshaft being chewed up. That's exactly what happened. Who's bright idea was it to make something like that, anyway? I guess it's to cut down noise? Then it fragments and sends hard plastic pieces throughout the engine. Nice. I also found pieces of a hard plastic tube, maybe 3/4 inch tall and 1/2 inch in diameter. The walls were about 1/16 thick, and it had a ridge running around the middle on the inside. I forgot to bring the pieces with me to work, so no picture, unfortunately. Any ideas as to what this might be out of? Time to go over to the Jeg's website and buy a gasket/timing set... Scott Ferguson 1974 260-Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPMS Posted March 20, 2001 Author Share Posted March 20, 2001 Hey, Kevin, Do you think I should go ahead and replace the bearings, too, as long as I'm staring at them anyway? I want to be cheap, but not stupid-cheap. And can I reuse rod bolts, or are they one-shot, like head bolts? I kinda want to pull at least the mains to look for excessive bearing wear. I know it's just a temp engine, but still, as long as I'm there... Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 20, 2001 Share Posted March 20, 2001 I got the same motor out of a 85 Camaro, and that was going to be the engine until I bought Myron's car. You can get a rebuild set out of PAW for less than $100. Timing chain can be had for $18 or so. Once you finish your 350, you can sell this to some one else. The heads are 58CC, and can be made to flow OK. They are popular with the circle track guys since they develop around 11:1 with flat tops on a 350. Enjoy! Ct.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 20, 2001 Share Posted March 20, 2001 The hard plastic tube may be the one that sometimes is used to hold the oil pump driveshaft to the pump. On a lo-po engine, it's ok to reuse the rod bolts. Just make sure they're clean so you get good torque readings. You might as well replace the bearings while you have it open. It won't cost much and will help oil pressure. If the crank isn't scored, you can probably get away with just using the same size bearings that are already in it. Not exactly blueprinting, but I've freshened up several (stock, low performance) engines this way to get more mileage out of them. ------------------ Jack Collins 72 240Z 66 Mustang Coupe 250/AOD Click Here to visit the Ford Six Cylinder Performance Forums! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Shasteen Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 I agree; "While you are There" & have easy access to it/definately throw in a set of main bearings....I would've suggested it earlier but didnt know what your definition of "Cheap Insurance" was. I've reused rod bolts before on a low perf.engine; you just have to make sure the threads are not stripped in anyway. Definatly would want to check or rpl the rod's as well; since you're doing the mains! When you do the timing gears dont forget to put in a new front timing cover seal....I mean as long as "You are There". Any preventive maintenance always translates into "Cheap Insurance". Before you throw the parts back together clean the threads as much as possible w/a wire brush & a parts cleaner of your choice; then just before you torque them down-dab a little oil on the threads for a proper torque reading. Good luck & have fun. Kevin, Yes,Still an Inliner) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPMS Posted March 21, 2001 Author Share Posted March 21, 2001 Kevin writes: >Good luck & have fun. Fun? FUN? Man, that doesn't even BEGIN to describe it! I haven't had this much fun since I learned how to... Well...nevermind. Suffice it to say that if I'd realized that it was this much fun rebuilding an engine, I'd have done it years ago, and I wouldn't be quite so nearsighted. I spent three hours this evening de-greasing and sandblasting various parts The intake manifold is going to be knockout-gorgeous when I clearcoat it after sandblasting. Yeah, I know, it's only a temporary engine, but I still want to be proud to pop the hood and show folks what I got! "pride in your ride", and all that. I think the sandblasted and black color scheme with chrome accents here and there will look quite nice and be very economical, too! On the business side, after reading y'alls advice, I went out and pulled off the main bearing caps. Yuck. The crank looks great, but some of the bearing surfaces have deep gouges in them. I guess the sacrificial layer on the bearings did its job, huh? There isn't a mark on the crank, that I could see. I didn't pull the con rod caps yet, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that they look the same way. When I put everything back together again (this weekend, maybe?) new bearings will definitely be in order. Scott Ferguson This is TOO much fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 Scott, sorry I haven't replied - I was being Pete-Paraska-esque in the garage the last few evenings and haven't checked HybridZ in days, sorry. (Scott knows about the -esque thing, from the 240Z-club list) Anyway, you've gotten a bunch of good advice whilie I was away. I'd tear it all the way down, check it out, do bearings, maybe knock the glaze of the cylinder walls while I was there and put new rings in, if the pistons check out (ring lands, etc. o.k.) The rebuild kits are SO CHEAP, you "might as well". That plastic tube would be the oil pump shaft coupler. It will run without it, but not a great idea. Get and aftermarket oil pump connecting shaft that has a steel coupler as part of the replacement shaft. I'd pull the springs off the valves, check the guide wear (dial indicator and wiggle the valve stem) and put new umbrella seals on the valves. Believe it or not, I'd have a hard time not getting carried away on this little project . Regards, ------------------ Pete Paraska - 73 540Z - Marathon Z Project pparaska@home.com Pete's V8 Datsun 240Z Pages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPMS Posted March 21, 2001 Author Share Posted March 21, 2001 Thanks for the advice, Pete. Last night I read something in an old Hot Rod magazine that advised, in the case of a beer-budget rebuild, to test the compression before removing the pistons from the bores. They said that if compression was good, I should not disturb the piston/ring/bore relationship. What do you think? You're right about the cost of rebuild kits being dirt cheap these days. I was looking through a PAW ad, and they had 350 rebuild kits with forged pistons going for well under $400. I just can't believe how cheap and available all this stuff is. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Speaker Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 couldn't have said that better... the 377 destroker kit over at speedomotive.com looks nice... $495 for everything and lots of options including forged pistons and other nice thingys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Shasteen Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 Remember....Pete knows what he's talking about; but, if his advise begins pushing you in the 11year timespan on a 6month temporary engine.....RETREAT/RUN AWAY/RUN FOR THE HILLS & dont look back! Sorry Pete/couldnt refuse that one! Kevin (Yes,Still an Inliner) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 No doubt. If it leaks down o.k., and you won't be using it much, close your eyes to the pistons/rings and run the thing. Kevin, you nailed that one on the head! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 Yes, definitely do the compression (leak down is better) test first. But it's worth while to yank the heads, pop out the pistons and inspect them. Pay attention to the rings (look for scuffing, breaks, etc.) and the ring lands. If they're beat to hell, the engine won't seal and you'll have higher rpm blow by and oil consumption. The price issue is something that the people who've only worked on japanese and european cars don't quite understand - you can buy rebuild kits for the 350/305 for a 1/4 of the cost of one for a Toyatoa, etc. And you can get the parts EVERYWHERE. [This message has been edited by pparaska (edited March 21, 2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPMS Posted March 22, 2001 Author Share Posted March 22, 2001 Y'all are a hoot! Trust me, this won't be one of those marathon projects. The rest of the car might be, but if the engine takes more than a month to get into the car, I'll be surprised. When I get on a project like this, it's pretty much no-holds-barred. Last night I plastigauged the bearings and found this: Mains (old, GM standard bearings) = .004 Con rods (old, .0005 oversized bearings) = .0015 Con rods (new, standard bearing) = .0025 I ordered .001 oversized bearings on both parts, and I'm not planning on turning the crank. Does this sound right? Never having done this before, I'm pulling a lot of information from magazine articles on Junkyard rebuilds, and I'm uncertain on many things. I know this isn't sanitary procedure, but I want to see what I can get away with in the real world. Part of the incentive in all this is to build a daily-driver engine that is leak-free and solid for as little money as possible. I've paid for the bearings, so assuming the compression is good, what else will I need besides the timing set and a full set of gaskets to button up this engine? Scott Ferguson 1974 260-Z w/ many V8 pieces in an ever-growing cloud surrounding it... [This message has been edited by RPMS (edited March 23, 2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 That should do it. Just remember to lube the snot out of everything as you put it together, and pump some oil in it before you start it. Hopefully the valve guides are good and you don't push oil in from the top. Ct.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 As long as you get the clearances close and there's no gouges, as you say, I'd just put in the correct size bearings to getthe clearances in the "service" tolerance, after having the crank polished. BTW, leak free isn't so easy on the pan of a SBC. But this can be made much less leaky if you get one of the expensive but reusable one piece oil pan gaskets from Felpro. They even now have them for the older 2 piece small block with the thin oil pan seals. Sweet deal. You could reuse it on another engine if it has the same oil pan seals/gaskets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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