pparaska Posted June 7, 2002 Share Posted June 7, 2002 I got mine today (Thanks Mike!) Boy was I surprised. Two little hunks of some kind of metal - looked like it was powdered metal of some kind. I was expecting springs to go in there too. I guess if it works, it works! Anybody installed one yet? Did you have to machine/sand/grind the side gears? BTW, the instructions don't say how much play they should have once installed. That seems wierd, as I thought that'd be critical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 7, 2002 Share Posted June 7, 2002 Pete, installed mine tonight. Basically, it pushes against the spider gears that drive the axles. There is plenty of room between the other spider gears. Between the axles was very tight. I tapped it in lighty and found that the axle spider gears were forced apart enough to impart more play between the other spider gears than normal (I have two other diffs to compare it with). So that wasn't gonna work. Pulled it out and ground down material from between the blocks rathar than grind down the spider gears (I figured they dont touch so removing material there wouldn't be a problem). It was .5 mm each PG block (measured with a mic). That left 2mm before the springs bottomed out, and enough space that the PG wasn't force fit (block to block contact). The spider gears felt as tight (free play?) as the other 2 diffs I have on my garage floor. Anyway, I ground material (.5mm) from areas that I think won't harm the heat treatment or whatever. And the springs aren't bottoming out. Did I do the right thing? Hell if I know! But I wasn't gonna grind my spider gears. The diff is buttoned-up and I'll put it in tommorrow. I'll keep you posted. BTW, I clamped the pinion in a vise and twisted the side axles... it's tight but I can turn them. 45ibs maybe??? I have no way to measure that. Anyway, I'll let you guys know if I grenade it. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 7, 2002 Share Posted June 7, 2002 Oh, BTW, clamp the PG in a vise and pop off the end straps. Then open the vise. You'll see the springs. I have some small "C" clamps that I used to hold it together and slide it between the gears. I took a few pics, but you know me, I was too busy working to take alot of pics. Heck, I don't know if they will even turn out (film camera) anyway, I'll post the stuff here. jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted June 7, 2002 Author Share Posted June 7, 2002 Thanks Jon. I guess I didn't look very carefully for the springs. I'm guessing that the straps that you remove after installing the PG unit are set to a desired length, to keep the blocks at a predetermined spacing from each other. I was just surprised that such a seemingly simple little device was fetching so many $$. Seems that if someone wanted to they could reverse engineer it and do it cheaper. The problems would be finding the correct material/finish to get the the friction correct and to get the wear properties correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QWKDTSN Posted June 9, 2002 Share Posted June 9, 2002 Exactly right... nobody's going to spend the money to find the right metal properties they will need (going through countless samples, plus CNC costs, etc) when Phantom Grip's done all the work for them. We know that we can get a PG for 290-350 but we have no idea how much it'd cost to try and make one ourselves. Better to just pay PG back for the work they've done to bring us the product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scca Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 looks too simple but there must be more too it like heat treat and metallurgy and spring tension etc... i am sure they blew'd a few up in testing to get them to the point of retailing.. as far as grinding on the PG how deep does HTreat go?? i would have thought less than .5mm?? comeon engineers out there tell us... i would have thought the heat treat was very thin in the surface so if grinding is needed i will do the spiders (follow the instruction) maybe it wont make a difference but spider gears are not worth anything so no harm in ruining them is there>? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jwelch Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 I'm starting to get cold feet on installing the Phantom Grip. I hope someone figures out the right way to install this. I'm definitely concerned about ruining the heat treatmeant and my diff too. Do we have any mechanical engineers here that can contact Phantom and make any sense of the right way to do this. I thought it would be much easier. Mine may be up for sale before it makes it into the diff. Regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted June 10, 2002 Author Share Posted June 10, 2002 I'm an ME, and I'd have to agree with Mike on this one. If there is a heat treat on the PG part, then .5mm might well take that away. I also agree on his advice to follow the instructions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scca Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 sometimes instructions are there for a reason. (while most of us in general may never read them )i think that IF we could grind on the PG itself with no discernable change in performance they would tell us to do that as an option.. they dont --so follow the instructions and then test the unit.. while Jon got it to work that way thats great but he is the long term test mule now - any maybe it will be fine but i'd rather take longer to install and give the PG a fair test for our application. if it were to fail and we all ground the units we dont know if its from install or the unit itself.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 What are the consequences of removing the heat treatment between the blocks, where there shouldn't be any contact? It seems that technology is the only voodoo here. I'll let you know if it blows! Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scca Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 i really dont know... you could call PG yourself and ask them if they have tried that instead and if there is a known side effect or not? but until i know for sure its ok i will stick the the instructions.. but hey if it works thats all i really care about... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brad Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 Standard heat treat depth for an average-sized spider gear (headed for the diff. on a Class 8 truck) is 0.06" +/- 0.01", that's for a part that is gas carburized w/ a subsequent quench and temper. IF that's a fairly small part, and IF it is indeed heat treated, they may induction harden it which would probably reduce the effective depth. I can't picture in my mind where you guys might be grinding (or for that matter, what this part even looks like), but if it's in an area that might carry any kind of load... don't. Surface condition of the part would be critical to it's endurance life. Manually grinding it is sure to leave significant surface imperfections. A grind that is too agressive may heat the part to an extent that it would leave areas of reformed martensite = very brittle surface = rapid crack propagation = oops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scca Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 DOH! all i know is i HOPE mine fits with NO grinding needed.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 ok there it is. now a question, notice how thw 2 blocks are touching..... is this right? there are some shims in the carrier(?) gears. should i take those out? or leave it be. to get the unit in i had to take out the retaining pins on one side of the unit and pound it in. this correct? dominic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 another thing i didn't grind anything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 Dominic, that was my situation also. Check the spider gears opposite the ones the phantom presses against. If you have more play than you had before the install, then it's like mine. I dont think the blocks should be touching, because you have a force fit and no real controlled tension from the springs inside the grip. Grind what you want. But I think hardened to hardened surface is the way to go. But that's me and time will tell. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 i dont think theres interference with the spider gears in mine. i think the gears the pg presses against is too tight. i guess ill grind the gears tomorrow. i could take out the shims but i dont think they would engage the spider gears correctly? anyone else this far? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scca Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 its still sunny here and i cant take my car off the road for a day or 2 just for the diff when the top is down and its sunny i just gotta drive it! by next week the weather will turn bad and it will sit inside for the diff upgrade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 Thanks Brad, I emailed you a diagram of the PG. I-M-uneducated-O, I feel the block's hardening is for surface-to-surface contact with the gears. But I may be wrong. I don't know if this matters, but I sanded the surface of the block before grinding and it revealed scalloped machining marks. My grinding made it smoother than it was originally. BTW, wouldn't grinding the gears remove the heat treatment from them? Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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