Guest Anonymous Posted September 7, 2000 Share Posted September 7, 2000 I checked today on a disassembled engine froma parts car I have..... the manifolds on vg30 engines will fit on either side facing forwards or backwards, ie. the bolt patterns are the same on each side as well as mirror images. This means I can mount the turbo to the front of the engine and get a pair of 200sx manifolds(each bank will exit down and forwards) and make just 1 small Y pipe with a flex section to plumb in the turbo. This makes my dream of intercooler plumbing very short and very easy, as well as intake plumbing. Also lets me do the whole 4 inch exhaust thing, and hopefully saves me from having to cut up the steering shaft. Any suggestions or things to watch for when solid mounting a turbo to the engine block? Anyone know if a vg30(non turbo) fit in a s30 without chopping up the steering by any chance? Thanks! ------------------ Morgan morgan@z31.com http://carfiche.com http://z31.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted September 7, 2000 Share Posted September 7, 2000 Morgan the best piece of advice I have for you is to find Corky Bell's book "Maximum Boost" and read it a few times. By far the best book on turbos I've seen, and it will address every issue you have about making this change you plan, of that I am sure. The book is one of the best engineering/reference/design books I have seen. ------------------ Drax240z 1973 240z - L28TURBO transplant on the way! http://members.xoom.com/r_lewis/datsun.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted September 7, 2000 Share Posted September 7, 2000 Morgan, glad to hear that the manifolds appear reversible. You are asking for comments/suggestions and I will make some, but please take it as advice from someone who has done a couple of complex swaps and is trying to help you avoid pitfalls. With both manifolds facing forward, you have eliminated the rear crossover pipe and move moved the turbo to the front. With that you should be able to move the engine back further. That should just about eliminate any concerns about the steering rod. You would then need a crossover pipe in the front of the engine with a "Y" into the other manifold pipe terminating with a flange for mounting the turbo. DO NOT consider any kind of flex pipe here. In fact, you want the absolute thickest pipe you can find. The turbo will be sitting on top of this flange and putting a lot of weight on the pipe, so consider some type of a bracket that connects the flange or the turbo to the front of the head to support the weight of the turbo. I strongly suggest you find a Buick Regal Turbo and study that setup as that is what you will need to do. Since you are going to custom make the support and flange for the turbo, do not limit yourself to the stock turbo as it is a POS!! MOF, I would suggest that you go with a stock Buick turbo as a performance upgrade and if you can get the original flanges and support bracket, then you just have to make mods instead of making everything from scratch. I have included a pic of my setup and hope I can help make heads and tails of it. The pipe in the upper right corner is for the TB so you can eliminate that from the discussion. The pipe in the middle/lower right is the compressor to I/C pipe. Between those 2 is a black flex hose and that is the inlet to the compressor from the air filter. That hose goes from the compressor to the air filter which I have on the drivers side forward of the radiator. The dark colored elbow on the turbine housing is a custom unit for more power and the stock unit is sitting on top of it for comparison. If you look to the left of the lower radiator hose you see the header (shiny) sweeping up at about a 45-degree angle with the turbine housing bolted to it. The circular bracket on top of the turbo is bolted to the turbo, sweeps behind it and is then bolted to the head and is the main support for the turbo. HTH, Scottie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted September 7, 2000 Share Posted September 7, 2000 What I meant was mounting the turbo to the engine to take the weight off of the exhaust! I figure that'll let me get away without really expensive plumbing, and no big deal if the exhaust Y cracks every few months if it only costs $10 to fix it! I was gonna use a maxima intake manifold, that'll give you a good extra 6-8 inches of room to slide the engine back. You think I'll still need to chop up the steering? ------------------ Morgan morgan@z31.com http://carfiche.com http://z31.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted September 7, 2000 Share Posted September 7, 2000 Not to shoot holes in your ideas/cars guys, but all that cast iron turbo plumbing and equipment looks like it might weigh something considerable. Have either of you weighed all this stuff out, added it to the engine weight, and compared it to the SB Chevy or Ford? I'm guessing with either the Buick or Nissan Iron block V6 and all the turbo stuff, including intercooler piping and intercooler, you're getting to within 50-100 lbs of a SB Chevy. How much do those IPR intercoolers and the piping weigh? The reason I'm asking is that stuff is far in front of the crossmember, and it increases the polar moment of inertia of the car. Again, I'm not shooting holes in the ideas or cars here, but I'm wondering what the real, installed system weight differences are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted September 7, 2000 Share Posted September 7, 2000 Bah. I dunno about the buick stuff, it does look heavy, but the nissan stuff is very light. vg30 is the lightest iron block v6 ever made they say! The 200sx manifolds are very small and don't wiegh much at all. A vg30t complete with everything on it and ready to go weighs 390 pounds, that's pretty light. The crank alone is around 21 pounds! ------------------ Morgan morgan@z31.com http://carfiche.com http://z31.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted September 7, 2000 Share Posted September 7, 2000 quote: Originally posted by pparaska: Not to shoot holes in your ideas/cars guys, but all that cast iron turbo plumbing and equipment looks like it might weigh something considerable. How much do those IPR intercoolers and the piping weigh? The reason I'm asking is that stuff is far in front of the crossmember, and it increases the polar moment of inertia of the car. B] Ahh, love to see talk about PMI! Thought I was the only one throwing that around (holds true on other lists, haven't been in here as much). I have a lot of respect for turbo setups and their originators and I'd ponder v. few custom setups ever get pushed hard enough to notice/benefit a lot from a lowered PMR (polar moment of inertia) but those that are can sure benefit from the light/lower/centred approach. Particularly the heavier your car (ie. a 280z/280ZX vs. a 240Z) the more gain you'll see. Same reason I didn't put my battery in the 'standard' drag back of trunk and instead placed it right behind my pass. seat. Ross (small PMI and proud of it;^) back to classes...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted September 7, 2000 Share Posted September 7, 2000 Low PMI is what makes cars like the McLaren F1, Miata, Elise, etc. fun. You turn the wheel, they go - no waiting - with less tire needed, less weight transfer, etc. Someday, I'm going to experiment with taking a 50 or 100 lb weight and moving it around in the car's luggage area to see if I can feel the effect. My guess is that this has more effect than you'd imagine. The moment of inertia (MOI) effect is proportional to the square of the distance (D) from the center of gravity of the car, and proportional to the mass (M). MOI = D*D*M So moving things closer to the CG has a large effect. I also put my battery behind the passenger seat on the luggage shelf, longitudinally and near the center of the car (just inboard of the strut tower). Nice sealed aluminum battery box from Summit also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted September 7, 2000 Share Posted September 7, 2000 Yes something to consider. You'll not see many purebred race cars that aren't mid engined and this is precisely why. For those of you with 280z's, ever consider how much weight those bumpers have, and how adversly they do affect handling? They are as far from the center of mass/gravity of the car as you can get. If anyone wants lessons in how to design a car, take a look at lotus. You might not like their engine choices, but as far as chassis goes in my opinion there is no one better. ------------------ Drax240z 1973 240z - L28TURBO transplant on the way! http://members.xoom.com/r_lewis/datsun.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted September 8, 2000 Share Posted September 8, 2000 Heh, PMI - so that's what it's called! This is also why I mount my batteries right over the rear axle and not too far to the side. Keep it in the middle and keept ir close in. I once got to see the effect of this sort of thing up close. I used to work with some heavy tempested equipment and some of the heaviest was printers. We drove station wagons back then for service calls and these things were so heavy you never shoved them more than you had to. Seems one of our guys forgot he had one and took an off-ramp at speed! Whooops! Car nearly came around on him and he swears it felt like it was going around the turn sideways - it certainly looked it! Needless to say, I've taken that object lesson to heart and try to keep things low and to the middle wherever possible - especially batteries! Mount them sturdy too, you don't want that puppy greeting you up front in the event of an "incident". My box is a sealed Summit aluminum one.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jason Posted September 8, 2000 Share Posted September 8, 2000 When I was looking around for a V8'able car for my next project, I seriously considered the Pontiac Fiero because of its mid engine design. Good handling, quick steering response, plenty of weight on the rear for acceleration, and a RUST FREE, lightweight fiberglass body. But the Z didn't have to pass emissions in my state, looked easier to convert, had better weight distribution, still had a decently low polar moment, and really just looked better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted September 9, 2000 Share Posted September 9, 2000 I hear ya! Emissions is one of th ebig things for me too. My Mustang is modded to hell but I've always got to keep one eye on emissions legality - or at least look like it's legal. The Z is also "different". I see Mustangs EVERYWHERE! I used ot have a Vega GT with a V8 (miss that car) and I got more looks and questions in that than I ever did the Mustang. With the Z I've actually had younger drivers ask me what it is - they've never seen one! Lot's of drivetrain options too - I like that A twin turbo 6cyl would be pretty darned nice as would a supercharged. Don't guess that's an option in this case though it would probably be lot's easier to package than two turbos. The SuperCouple motor looks pretty compact to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Scott Posted September 9, 2000 Share Posted September 9, 2000 When I swapped in the 4.3, the change in PMI was amazing. The response to steering input seemed instantaneous. I'd love to see a comparo. with the V6 vs V8 vs L6 in twisting through the cones all with identical suspensions. I know which my money would be on JS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted September 9, 2000 Share Posted September 9, 2000 quote: Originally posted by John Scott: When I swapped in the 4.3, the change in PMI was amazing. The response to steering input seemed instantaneous. I'd love to see a comparo. with the V6 vs V8 vs L6 in twisting through the cones all with identical suspensions. I know which my money would be on JS John, so what is the weight difference b/t your 4.3 and an 8 with the 2 more cylinders? is their writeups on yours anywhere (mods/pics)? I"ve previously gotten info requests on doing the GM V6 swap but didn't know anyone to recc'd. Their is one in the Seattle area but I've never gotten any contact info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted September 9, 2000 Share Posted September 9, 2000 quote: Originally posted by pparaska: Someday, I'm going to experiment with taking a 50 or 100 lb weight and moving it around in the car's luggage area to see if I can feel the effect. My guess is that this has more effect than you'd imagine. The moment of inertia (MOI) effect is proportional to the square of the distance (D) from the center of gravity of the car, and proportional to the mass (M). MOI = D*D*M So moving things closer to the CG has a large effect. I also put my battery behind the passenger seat on the luggage shelf, longitudinally and near the center of the car (just inboard of the strut tower). Nice sealed aluminum battery box from Summit also. Hmm, used a normal battery?? That and the battery box will be adding weight, can't help teasing you Pete when you get into this enjoyable detail. If you do replace your battery I'd recc'd an Optima or equivalent which doesn't outgas, is extremely durable/long lived. Mine has survived 3 alternator failures and other wiring booboos. Friends rolled race car had a dented Optima, they figured it was dead and hooked up some leads on it and touched them and made a MASSIVE spot weld:-) That's safety when a battery dents and stays intact IMO. Anyone that does put one in their car I'd recc'd centred b/t the axles (BLKMGC mentions on his rear axle, is this for drag use?, if so you might even want it slightly behind rear axle) and it's VERY handy to put a full disconnect switch adjacent to it. You only need v. short battery to frame leads for the ground etc and it's v. handy whenever you do work to just turn it off in a second (anti-theft too). I reccomend using single ought (O) welding leads at a minimum and OO moreso as it's extrememly low resistance (and the cable weight is down low anyhow:-) I used OOO cause it was cheap but likely overkill with solder on lugs on the ends for a permanent setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted September 10, 2000 Share Posted September 10, 2000 I've not yet decided on a battery but something sealed for sure! On top of that I'm running a sealed, vented, aluminum battery box. I figure I'll mount it as far forward on the rear deck as I can and will probably run a cutoff switch there and maybe another on the rear - we'll see. I'm going to try and keep the storage bays functional - or at least one of them. I'm going to use one of the battery kits that Summit etc. sells even though I know I could get welding wire somewhere around here. On the Mustang I ended up running two cables and using large circuit breakers on them With just the one cable I blew the breaker starting it hot a couple of times! The box I'm using is from Summt and it pretty darned nice. Not a high polish but pretty close, it looks like it'll seal well and meet tech. I don't want the battery back behind the axle - this will be mostly a street car, some drag, possibly some track use. I'm most comfortable not having anything hanging back behind the axle acting as a pendulum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted September 10, 2000 Share Posted September 10, 2000 Ross, that's O.K., I enjoy the ribbing . I went with a Group 26 regular battery. It's pretty small, not very heavy, and cheap. $40 US. If it isn't enough, I'll probably upgrade to an Optima. Those things are bucks though. Battery technology is changing rapidly, and I've heard that in a few years, they will have much high power/weight ratio, so I'm kind of biding my time. I have the sealed Summit box that BLKMGK has, and the battery has little vent tubes on the covers that I ran tygon tubing from, to a T, and then to a fitting I put into the boxes vent fitting. So no gases will exist even in the box. I ran the vent from the box to the right rear inner fender. The box is very close to the center (left to right) of the car. Hey, I'm like 220 lbs, so I needed some ballast on that side of the car. Hmm. I might need to put a few more batteries in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted September 10, 2000 Share Posted September 10, 2000 Looked closer today while painting the cage. Looks liek my box will be turned 90 degree and fit in between the two cargo boxes - I think it'll fit. Will go with a sealed battery, couple of bucks on a good battery is no biggie after all the rest of the cash getting sunk into this baby Hrm, we need to start a handling thread on this (lol). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Scott Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 Ross, I can't remember the exact weight difference. I've got the #s somewhere. After seeing some of the weights posted for the V8s, I can't say mines really much lighter. I'd guess 2505 with the new trans.(240s are pretty light to begin with) I do know having less engine hanging out over the front makes a big difference in the handling. The weight bias is definitely more to the rear. JS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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