pparaska Posted November 1, 2000 Share Posted November 1, 2000 quote: Originally posted by clint78z: Pete not to beat a dead horse here, my brother also own a 1990 talson TSI AWD and it does have what alot of people percieve as a ton of lag . I would like to take the negative and mystery from lag . Compare you dsm to the N/A version of 2.0L, if you were to test each side by side, theN/A vesrion is just gutless all the time . In most cases in driving the turbo car will have quicker response in all most every driving situation than it's N/A counterpart . Corky Bell says it best in his book no lag means no doubling your power . I guess it's that last bit (no lag, no doubling your power) that keeps me away from being a total Turbo freak. I do like the power my Eclipse makes at 15psi, it's just that if it's warm out, or the combustion chambers aren't totally clean to keep it from pinging (and the knock sensor is hearing it and retarding the timing) then it just doesn't run at full potential. I know I should put a catch can in the PCV line and I've done away with the valve cover vent spewing into the intake tract. Oil into the combustion chambers on these cars KILL their performance and it seems to be prevalent in the Talon/Eclipse/Laser. For racing, Turbo lag is not a problem. On the street, with pump gas, there are compromises with high boost turbo setups. It's those compromises, the immediate low end torque, and the simplicity and easy of working on the SBC that drove me to the V8. I'm not saying turbos aren't a great way to make power, as I have a 3200 lb 2 liter Eclipse that proves they are. And it's mostly stock, not optimized! ------------------ Pete Paraska - 73 540Z - Marathon Z Project - pparaska@home.com">pparaska@home.com - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clint78z Posted November 1, 2000 Share Posted November 1, 2000 Excellent discussion here Pete, I am not all turbo and no SBC chev fan . There are some downsides to a turbo car, many times on this subject apples are compared to oranges . You have very valid points about downfalls of turbo . 1) You have less power on hotter days (true but a front mounted intercooler would help on your DSM or clean old one out with gas) 2) Harder to work on (2.8L mechanical is a snap and parts are reasonable) . The tuning takes much more care and poor tuning can kill a turbo motor dead . As you go up in cubic inches turbo lag is less noticable . The Chev 350 is cheap easy to upgrade and has a ton torque and can rev fairly high . I think eurozx is getting a good idea what both motors can do . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted November 1, 2000 Share Posted November 1, 2000 quote: Originally posted by clint78z: Excellent discussion here Pete, I am not all turbo and no SBC chev fan . Me either, as having one of each (V8Z and Turbo Eclipse) shows. Believe me I'm on both sides of that fence. I toasted a 5.0 Liter Stang the other day (loud exhaust, etc.) with the Eclipse. Man was he surprised his V8 got spanked by a little 4 cylinder. I want to do things to the Eclipse (front mount intercooler, etc.), but parts for it ain't cheap and I tend to throw money at the Z instead. Seems that it's aftermarket has many of the same problems as the rest of the import scene - the prices of the parts seem very inflated to me. At least most of the Eclipses/Talons I see riced up can actually perform as well . [This message has been edited by pparaska (edited November 01, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 1, 2000 Share Posted November 1, 2000 Great help guys, when i was interested in gettting a 87 300zx turbo [im sorta glad i didnt get one, love em.. just dont want one as much now] i was looking at all the modifications i could do to it. i then found what i thought was a 84 turbo engine that i got for free, along with tranny and any parts left in the car but i later came to find out it was a non-turbo and my v6 swap dreams were gone. $3000 is a very acceptible price to pay for a 250+hp turbo engine [in my eyes] and makes me want to do this swap as soon as posible. im going to call the local junkers and see if anyone has a turbo 280zx. i would like to buy the intire car but heh, whats the chance of that.. i only wish i could pull the engine apart and do it all my self. while my customizer wont take an arm and a leg [providing i help] it still wont be cheap. and its always good that i can just stick the stock turbo [ill get a cam probably] in the zx and upgrade to stage 2 etc. later on in the game. im glad this thread has generated so much responce. i changed my mind about the no-turbo plan i was going about to wanting to get a turbo and have it push the right amount of power that i think the car should have. the 250hp mark is where im set at, if i get more, great, less, o well. im sure i wont get less but the fear of wanting MORE MORE MORE is always around the next turn. thanks everyone for replying. i will let you all know as soon as the project starts, the status, and when it finishes. you can also check my website at http://eurozx.pmef.net for current modifications and future plans. now its time to find a turbo engine anyone got one? hehe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fast Frog Posted November 1, 2000 Share Posted November 1, 2000 euro280zx: This might help and cut some cost at the same time. There's an outfit in Birmingham Alabama called Turbo Specialties which among other things specializes in serious upgrading of the 280ZX turbo and stock accessories. They recommend purchasing the entire ZX turbo assembly (or the complete car)and sending the turbo unit to them for rebuilding into an 80%+ efficient "hybrid" turbo that can put out 250HP+ using mainly stock ZX turbo components with a few upgrades. I looked into this earlier this yr when changing out the drive train in my son's '76 280Z. Their phone # is (205)444-5011. You might get an awesome setup for less than $2K!! Good luck!! Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clint78z Posted November 1, 2000 Share Posted November 1, 2000 Pete if you are looking for go fast goodies for your eclipse go to dsm.org lots of used stuff . My brother is putting a starion intercooler up front I bought for $40us . There is a huge page of tweeks for your car like upgrading intercooler piping, removing air silencer squish top on Blow off valve ... The mods to the eclipse are fairly cheap if you do some research . A 3" exhuast make a fair bit of difference . For just over $1000 a 300hp is acheviable . Don't get sucked into those fancy expensive parts, there are a ton of these for turbo cars . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted November 1, 2000 Share Posted November 1, 2000 Clint, thanks. I've been aware of dsm.org, the mail list etc. since soon after it started. Even $1000 is too much for me to consider, so I'll gimp along with the ~240hp that the $50 mechanical boost controller gives . Some day the stock exhaust might rot out (106000 on the original and it's still going) and I'll upgrade that. As far as Japanese 4cyl. cars go, it's hard to beat the DSM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted November 2, 2000 Share Posted November 2, 2000 Euro - glad to see you're coming around! the last turbo car I owned was a V8 with two turbos - can you say zero lag from 2K up? That was an example of a properly sized turbo install I recently drove a slightly modified Buick GN. Holy smoke! Yeah, a little lag but wowza when it kicked in we were hauling butt. The biggest thing other than poor sizing that will kill turbo response is a restrictive exhaust system. My turbo car had some pretty free flowing mufflers and catalytic converters. Now that the car is supercharged and I've nto got the turbos the car is MUCH noiser. The tip here is that when you swap this motor in you should attempt to get the freest flowing exhaust that you can. The turbo will eat a great deal of the noise and the lack of backpressure will allow it to spool much more quickly. Is your friend's automatic ZX running a stock exhaust? Stock boost level? Just the automatic alone is probably killing that car (sigh). How much boost does his turbo make right now? If it's stock then this too explains much. Heh, we could help him out lot's I'll bet Work on making the intake and exhaust tracts as free flowing as possible and you'll reduce th elag. If you hook a vacuum guage to the intake and see anything but ambient pressure before the throttle body then you've got a restriction that will yield benefit if it's removed. The turbo ZX I drove had a nice K&N filter in front of the radiator where it could get cool air and the boost bumped - that's it. Once I got to about 2K it was making boost and starting to boogie - that's really not much off of idle is it? The exhaust on that car is mostly stock too but it did see about 12lbs of boost Geez, now my juices are flowing on this. Where are some good tubo ZX sites? This friend of mine doesn't want to mod his car any further but I'm wondering just how far it could go. In the meantime I'm researching a 3rd Gen RX7 to replace my Miata. Think it'll stay stock? (lol) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted November 2, 2000 Share Posted November 2, 2000 The post that just wont stop Euro, if you have decided to go L28 turbo, you will have more help than you could ever dream of. Let me start out by saying that the 280ZXT is a very poor example of a turbo setup. WTF!!! Before you throw something at me for that statement, I mean as it comes from the factory. Check out my website and see what you do with the some of the stock Nissan components and a little ingenuity. http://www.mindspring.com/~vscott911/scotties240zt.htm BLKMGK, check this out: http://members.tripod.com/~grannys/markcorbett.html ------------------ Scottie 71 240GN-Z http://www.mindspring.com/~vscott911/gnz.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted November 2, 2000 Share Posted November 2, 2000 WOW! That RX is sweet! Talk about a crammed engine compartment. I love how sleeper it looks. Man that must be fun to play with on the street! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted November 2, 2000 Share Posted November 2, 2000 BLKMGK a good place to look for a few zx turbo tips is Greg Krings website. He's got some low budget mods there that should really pep up a stock car. http://home.flash.net/~joeao/greg/zcar.html ------------------ "Gimme Fuel, Gimme Fire, Gimme that which I desire" -Metallica Drax240z 1972 240z - L28TURBO transplant on the way! http://members.xoom.com/r_lewis/datsun.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 2, 2000 Share Posted November 2, 2000 Scottie-GNZ, thanks for the link! looks like a good way to go, the link that was in the last post seams a bit to much. custom intake? wow.. but scottie, what did you do to your intake? i see everything but a few vacume hoses has been taken off and smoothed out. why did you do that? i will definatly go with an intercooler, t4/5 hybrid turbo [from that turbo phone # in a previous post], custom exhaust setup, modifidy and ported intake, performance camshaft, and some other things i read about on sites. now ive read all over and still kinda like my n/a i would like to modify the inside of the engine. i would like to atleast upgrade the pistsons/rods and anything else that may not work as well at higher 350+hp. i dont realy want more hp then 350 but since i dont have 350hp yet i wont know if i want more! what else would i want to do to the inside of the engine to gain no realy more performance but more reliable performace? if im running 350hp im sure its going to put a strain on the stock 280zxt internals. i do plan on getting an engine that has to be rebuilt [just so i know its good] and i will be fine to stick all the stock innereds in [besides a performance cam] but if i can beef anything up to insure nothing will break that would be great. ok, so heres the list of what i understand i need so far to acheave atleast 300hp: intercooler hybrid t4/5 turbo larger injectors perf. camshaft modifyed intake aftermarket EFI unit, [sDS Programmable Fuel/Ignition Management System] performance ingition 60mm throttle body thats all i can think of now, am i missing anything? from the looks of it i can get most parts used. i know the i/c i can get used, injectors mabey. im thinking total cost would be around $4000. i was looking at atleast $5k on the n/a engine to get it to nearly 250hp [or what ever, heh BASTARDS!!] so $4k + some is great! id have to say the best part about this intire thing is i can go ahead get the engine, rebuild it, and stick it in and expect a very nice performance upgrade. i can always add on many [all] of the parts above later on in the life of the engine. thanks guys, back to the search for an engine [cause my n/a is having bad fuel problems and i dont wanna think about it]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted November 2, 2000 Share Posted November 2, 2000 Euro, as for my intake, it was done for aesthetics. I feel you can do that kind of stuff when you can back it up . When you install an SDS, all that crap on the intake is not needed. If 300-325hp is your goal, then here is a little advice. First, the turbo is a t3/t04 hybrid. Do not get hung up on a performance cam for a turbo engine in that hp range. You can go a long way with the stock cam and it will do fine for what you want. Remember that all you know about hi-perf cams in a N/A does not apply to a turbo engine. Take any funds you had allocated in a cam and put it in the I/C. DO NOT GO CHEAP ON THE I/C . Focus your funds on the programmable system, the I/C, fuel system (injs, pump and FPR), exhaust, clutch and suspension/brakes. 300hp is useless (actually dangerous) if you cannot put it to the ground or stop. ------------------ Scottie 71 240GN-Z http://www.mindspring.com/~vscott911/gnz.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 2, 2000 Share Posted November 2, 2000 i just got off the phone with turbo specialtys [bah] and after talking with them we came up with what would produce a good amount of power and leave anough stuff left over to produce more power. for now it looks like i still stick with a 82 turbo with a P90 head, i will use the stock wiring harness for now. with a few minor mods [bOF, Ported intake, and what ever] i should have enough power to make me happy untill i can get the rest of the parts. the reason i would do the cam is because im going to rebuild the motor any way. if i rebuild it now and dont stick a cam in it i wold feal a bit bad. heh. im alsoing looking at getting JE, forged pistons, and stronger rods/rod bolts just to be sure i dont blow my rods or pistons and kill my car. later i would be upgrading to a 75 intake and shave all excess compontents off of it for looks, custom fuel rail with larger injectors [probably the same ones you used], a bell ingenering intercoolr [walker said he payed $550 ish for a new one], 60mm throttle body, alternative fuel/igntion controler [doe the sds one require the stock computer or is it a replacement?], higher peerformace fuel pump, and anything else i can find out about. thanks again, i only wish i had all the stuff now, my car is running like CRAP! thanks guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted November 2, 2000 Share Posted November 2, 2000 Definately stay with the stock cam, performance camshafts won't work in the same way! I believe it is due to higher valve overlap while the intake charge is compressed... air gets forced into the combustion chamber through the intake, and since the exhaust valve is open at the same time, gets pushed right out! (remember, its flowing in at higher than atmospheric pressures) You can get performance turbo cams, but as scottie says, spend the dough on an intercooler instead. I'll try to run down the parts you'll need: Turbo engine T3/T04 turbo 3/8" fuel line (not sure what zx's had stock) fuel pump fuel pressure regulator intercooler & piping Scotties world famous downpipe 3" mandrel bent exhaust and muffler Larger injectors (check scotties page) Custom fuel rail SDS EM-6F (i wouldn't bother with others) A mechanical boost gauge A mechanical oil pressure gauge I'd recommend an air/fuel gauge 60mm TB Slight porting of intake to accept TB I am sure I am forgetting things, but this is the basic idea... Not a small project. I'd strongly recommend you do some chassis upgrades at the same time. (urethane bushings, bigger brakes, etc) ------------------ "Gimme Fuel, Gimme Fire, Gimme that which I desire" -Metallica Drax240z 1972 240z - L28TURBO transplant on the way! http://members.xoom.com/r_lewis/datsun.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fast Frog Posted November 2, 2000 Share Posted November 2, 2000 Scottie & Drax are right!! You'll have to look far and wide to beat your stock cam in a turbo setup. As I posted earlier, I installed 8 or 9 cams with the 3 different turbo setups on my '76 Z. The best one was a Racer Brown 52/54 110 cam with .480 lift but the duration was short so overlap would be minimal which allows the turbo to function at its best! Unfortunately, Racer died yrs ago and this cam is unavailable. Another cam that was slightly better than stock was Bill Gude's (out of Calif) D-1 cam. This cam is almost identical to Racer's cam but with a little more duration. Another good cam is the "C" cam which used to be offered by the old Datsun Competition out of Calif. I'm not sure, but I think Motorsport Auto bought them out. The "C" cam is just a slightly beefed up 240 cam with .435 lift and 256 deg of duration. If this helps, I'd be willing to dig in my files in the garage and get some phone #s for Bill Gude and Datsun Comp. BTW, the Bill Gude cam and the Racer Brown cam were especially made for an L28 turbo setup-aftermarket for the 280Z and as an upgrade for the ZX turbo. [This message has been edited by Fast Frog (edited November 02, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Fast Frog (edited November 02, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 2, 2000 Share Posted November 2, 2000 well the only reason i would do a cam now is what ever engine i get will probably need to be rebuilt. if i rebuild it now im going to want to stick everything i can in it to make it a more reliable engine. after talking with walker at turbo specialtys or what ever he was telling me how he got 400+ hp out of his turbo with an engine that had 100k+ miles on it. WOW! thats realy gutzy, i dont want to blow another engine and i realy dont want something that burns oil, so a rebuild is something that will be happening. if i rebuild it i will do the pistons and rods for sure. sounds like the cam is a waste of $$ and i probably wont do it, and still i probably wont get pistons or rods just get stock ones so they are new. this is one long thread. thanks everyone. eveyone is still helping alot so dont stop if you have suggestions. for now i will just stick the stock turbo motor with wiring harness in to get it started [once i find an engine that is] but its so cool that i can do this now and still upgrade later without to much problems. thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 2, 2000 Share Posted November 2, 2000 Turbo cams have vastly different requirements than cams for a non turbo engine. Using a cam intended for a non turbo in a turbo car can just as easily decrease power as it can increase it. A bone stock engine with a boost controller will get you the 250hp you wanted and then some. All the stuff you're talking about, properly installed and setup, will get you as much power as you can handle, easily 400+ if done properly. ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 2, 2000 Share Posted November 2, 2000 Motorsports now sells turbo cams for the 280zx. thats what i would get, they have 2 diffrent kinds [i dont have the catalog here so i cant post specs] but thats what i was thinking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 2, 2000 Share Posted November 2, 2000 Ah, so they do. I dunno who makes them, but probably worth trying. Whatever you do, don't use a non turbo cam! Call JWT and see if they have anything. I doubt it, but you might be able to get some excellent advice. ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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