SDS + LS1 + turbo ?'s

[Guest Anonymous]

OK this is for all the turbo wizards out there: I'm seriously considering an LS1 swap but ONLY if I can figure out a way to turbo it. I'm aware of the kits they have out there for this motor but since I have some stuff laying around already like the T-66 turbo, piping and an intercooler I see no reason to buy a kit that costs well over $4k. I've already looked over Jeromio's and Lone Star's posts and basically feel confident I could have this swap up and running in about a month. When everything's up and running, I'll start working on the turbo setup.

 

Here's my battle plan: get 8.5:1 forged pistons, keep boost to a maximum of 7# and I should be good to go. All the piping and plumbing presents a challenge since the LS1 already is a tight fit but I plan on placing the turbo on the rider side exhaust via a custom manifold. The turbo will sit in between the engine and the radiator. Other than that this looks like it should be doable. Of course I'll have to rework the fuel system and add in a FPR and might have to replace the fuel pump but oh well

 

The only thing I'm really concerned about is this engine management: I'm not sure which one to use. I know Haltech makes one but it's waaaaayy to expensive for my blood and the laundry list of features is intimidating. What about SDS? I've never dabbled in stand-alone management systems before so I'm just looking for something that's easy to use with a short learning curve. If anyone's had any experiences with these management systems, shed some info. Thanx in advance

[QWKDTSN]

I'd go with SDS if they have an 8-cylinder kit. It has a lot of cool features, you don't need a laptop to program it, it's easy to get everything installed as far as I know, though you may have to have the crank magnets installed by a competent shop if you don't feel confident doing it yourself. The control panel is easy to use, i've heard, and I know that by inputting a code and removing the panel you have a guaranteed anti-theft device. The car won't start without it. Plug it in again, input the code, and you're good to go. Of course I don't have any hands-on experience with SDS but from what I've heard it's a great way to go.

[Guest Anonymous]

ok just so facts you can take or leave...

by placeing the turbo between the radiator and the motor can be a bit scarry if you look at it like this.... are you runing a flex fan or ele if you run a flex fan say it comes off whats the first thing its guna hit... and your guna have to run your exaust to the turbo up front meaning your bringing more heat areound the radiator guna make it harder to cool the motor... you might just wana mount it right at the exaust man there are reasons why people do this.. oh and you will expeareance more turbo lag by runing it further away because it takes time to git to the turbo... just my imput take it or leave it...

[jeromio]

LS1 does not have a pump driven fan. You have to use an electric unit. Turbo HAS to go up in front between engine and radiator - no other place to put it. This will not create extra lag, most especially if the custom manifold dumps to the front.

 

If you get the motor with the stock ECU, you can use it - no need to buy an (expensive) aftermarket system. The turbo kits that are available use the stock ECU and mostly don't even reprogram it. You only need to get the ECU reprogrammed (costs $150-250 depending on the shop), if you go extreme. The ECU can respond to variations, such as increased manifold pressure, and compensate. It may throw a few codes, but it'll run merrily along. This PCM is really very nice.

 

Also, the turbo kits that are available use stock internals - 6psi of boost at 10:1 compression! Makes around 450rwhp! Obviously if you have the bucks, you can get new pistons and up the boost. http://www.ls1.com has a a Forced Induction board - lots of experienced people there.

 

You might be able to use the stock ex manifolds. I've taken mine off - if I remember, I'll see if it bolts on flipped around. It'd sure make the install easier with the manifolds exiting forward, away from steering shafts and such.

 

Also, if you want to install the motor the way I'm doing mine, I should have some pics and measurements of the crossmember mods after T-Giving break.

[Guest Anonymous]

Big thanks for the help guys. Jeromio, the pics would be much appreciated. I'd avoid going the forged route if I can, I just wanted to be on the safe side. Just looked up the www.ls1.com, those Incon guys make a pretty good turbo system. They're saying that if you run more than 6.5 pounds boost they have a custom programmed ECU for $575 but I wouldn't push it beyond that. Another thing is, I have a TurboXS bypass valve I'd like to use. The guy who I got it from told me something about Bypass Valves and cars equipped with MAF sensors and special precautions needed to be taken when using one on a MAF-equipped engine. I keep forgetting but it would be nice to be able to use the Bypass Valve and scare the sh*t outta ricers when I shift. I'm going to check Summit's catalog for FPR's and inline fuel pumps and a fuel cell. I have a lot of work cut out for me ...

[Guest Anonymous]

I love turbo for it virtually unlimited power production potential. In 1979 I turbo'd my 1972 240 with a 280 block and EFI head. Fuel was much better octane wise, and between a home made BPR and a Shelby Spearco water injection unit this motor produced right at 270 hp and 290 lbs of torque.

My only problem with this setup, was the notchiness of the HP buildup.

The straight line acceleration was OK, but if I was testing the limits of the tires ability to hold a line through a corner, and the boost would start to build quickly, the rear end had a nasty tendency to want to slide out.

Boost and HP build quickly by design, and the higher the boost the greater the disparity between the normally aspirated HP numbers and the boost numbers.

With just 10 lbs of boost, most motors will easily produce a 100% increase in HP and do it 1000 rpm less than before.

My point is are you sure that the result you will get with turbo will allow you to keep the handling manners of the car at a maximum?

One turbo install which really had problems was one where the downshift point of the transmission (auto) occurred at the same moment the boost hit the hardest.

As I have never driven a Z V8 turbo car, I can't say that my experience with the L6 car would offer any real comparison. I just hate to go to a pile of work to accomplish a conversion only to find that some other aspect of the final result leaves me wishing I had known before all the effort was expended.

Food for thought only, I am sure you will like the straight line performance and you probably are a much better driver than I am.

[jeromio]

Huh? If the bypass valve routes the excess boost to the intake pipe, then what's being bypassed. Confused equals me. Do you mean that it routes pressurized air meant for the combustion chamber into the turbo's intake (which normally gets its air from the exhaust)? That would make sense, I guess.

 

Oh, and as to what Idaho mentions, re: handling - in that recent "SuperCar Shootout" Car and Driver article, they did say that the Ligenfelter TT vette was impossible to handle. It had road course times that were worse than the other cars because they just couldn't effectively manage the power curve thru the corners. It's standing mile time was by far the quickest though.

 

So, yeah, especially in a light little Z car with definate limits on tread width (unless you flare it), there is such a thing as too much power, especially if it's peaky.

 

Personally, my Z is a daily driver and I can't forsee a need for more than the 300rwhp I ought to see from the NA LS1...

[Guest Anonymous]

well I figure a manual boost controller would handle all of that. I could adjust the amount of boost accordingly. I'm also going the fendered route, I'm paying close attention to Scottie's Corvette IRS swap. I wouldn't say I'm a professional driver but I have been behind the wheel of some powerful street cars like an older gen MR2 boosted at 20#. But then again, that car has amazing handling anyway but it shouldn't be too drastic a leap. Didn't that lingenfelter vette run like 16# boost?

[Lone Star 1]

Sopdadope

You do know that a LS1 with stage 2 heads and cam will make about 400 to 450 RWHP and be a completey mild to totaly wild drivable power plant. Mine with 300 RWHP and 3.36LSD can't be hammered in corners unless you want to see where you just came from.450 RWHP would brobley but a 240Z in the 10 sec bracket, with no need for all that custom piping. But to each his own, that's what makes this site so much fun.

[BLKMGK]

Some thoughts... Swap the rods, the powdered units are strong but at the "right" HP level they will turn to dust. Hunt around the 'net and you'll find at least one site where a guy had this happen on a radical blown car. If it's going to be apart you might as well take care of this too.

 

LS1 has a DIS ignition - no distributor. Make sure the SDS can interface with it. FAST, DFI GEN7 both interface with it if SDS won't but price is higher. Since this is a blown app you might want to consider stepping up to a unit with a wideband O2. My recent research has been interesting in that I've been told that blown apps are CAKE to tune with a wideband. I'll try to post my results soon (really!) - trying to decide between FAST and DFI right now. DFI GEN7 is at least $400 more expensive BTW but is sequential out of the box. Expensive motor to blow up....

[Guest Thurem]

Isn't the T66 turbo the one the Supra guys use to make 800 hp on their 3.0 l motors, That sounds to me like it would be too big for a very moderate amount of boost ie 6.5 psi. Maybe if you got a turbo that was sized according to the boostlevel you are shooting for, it would start coming on right after idle and be very drivelable with little or no lag, and a smooth hp curve.

Thure

[Guest Anonymous]

The deal with bypass valves on turbo cars is this: Basically, a bypass valve and blow-off valve are indentical in their operation... Excess pressure (caused by lifting off the throttle while under boost) between the turbo and the T/B is vented off. A blow-ff valve vents it to the atmosphere, creating the cool "pfff" sound, which is fine for a MAP equipped car. A bypass valve routes this air back into the intake pipe.

 

I just installed an open-element (cone) onto my Audi's intake, and believe me, you hear the "pfff" with it. The car is equipped with a stock bypass valve. Since your app will be custom, I'd assume you're going to run some sort of cone filter. You'll still hear it.

 

Either way, it's almost a MUST that you use something.. nasty turbo damage can result otherwise.

 

On my car, the bypass valve empties downstream of the MAF sensor, i.e. closer to the turbo than the MAF is.

[Guest super280z]

the t-66 should be fine. remember that you have 2 extra cyllinders to pump ehxaust through. T series turbos work great in single apps. (especially if you had it just lying around.) but seriously, if you're going to go through the trouble of swapping pistions to lower your CR, why only go with 7# of boost? im about to see what the stock hyperutectic pistions can handle in my dakota. 12-15? who knows hehe.. i've seen guys run 20 + on stockers. of course thats only at the track but, remember it's all about the air/fuel ratio. a well tuned SDS setup should be absolutely awesome for what you want to do. just be certian that it will interface with the ignition system as afore mentioned. sounds totally awesome and because you allready have the parts it just makes the deal that much better. good luck!

 

[ November 02, 2001: Message edited by: Super280z ]

[Guest Anonymous]

quote:

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Originally posted by thurem:

Isn't the T66 turbo the one the Supra guys use to make 800 hp on their 3.0 l motors, That sounds to me like it would be too big for a very moderate amount of boost ie 6.5 psi. Maybe if you got a turbo that was sized according to the boostlevel you are shooting for, it would start coming on right after idle and be very drivelable with little or no lag, and a smooth hp curve.

Thure

---

 

 

I think the turbo you're thinking about is the T-88 turbo? They are very popular among the Supra crowds because they can produce immense boost. I also recall a single turbo kit for the Supra that comes with the T-66 but not sure. Yes, a T-66 used in a straight six or 4-banger is an extreme application however, for an LS1 it's a rather mild slug. A friend of mine says that the bigger T-78 is a more common turbo in custom V8 applications.

 

Lone Star, yes I'm aware of cam and TB upgrades. I'm actually thinking of getting the LS6 intake especially if I can find one for a good price. This turbo setup is convenient because I have all the goods already and giving the LS1 a little more pep on the topend should be very fun.

 

BTW- the motor I'm looking at is from a '98 Camaro SS. Anything special about these motors other than the 15 extra horses over the regular LS1's?

[Guest Anonymous]

O I forgot to mention: I won't be changing the stock internals. My pockets aren't deep enough....

[jeromio]

I'm not aware of the SS having any extra power. I do know that the ECU is completely different. Also, there was a problem with alternators on the '98s.

 

For parts (such as the ls6 intake), I recommend valvegod@aol.com. Dealt with him a couple of times with very good results.

[jeromio]

Oh, I looked today and I don't think you can swap the exhaust manifolds side to side. Not easily anyway. The bolt holes don't match up.

 

Incon and TurboTech both have manifolds though - perhaps you could buy them separately from the full kit?

[Guest Anonymous]

Jeromio, thanks for going out of your way to help a fellow HybridZer (not yet, but soon!) out. I really do appreciate the input. I'm in the process of buying the engine. The engine comes complete with ECU, harness and all accessories. There's a T-56 from a 99 Trans Am in a nearby yard I can pick up for $600. I've studied all the posts regarding to the LS1 swap and I'm confident I can have it finished and running by december. Once everything is in its place, I'll get all the measurements down so I can build a custom manifold. I'll be using SS pipes. Thanks for all the help so far, I'll keep you posted.

[BLKMGK]

Comes with ECU? I think I'd be tempted to hook up with the LT1-Edit folks for their LS1 editing software and use th estock ECU. I'm not sure how that ECU does with boost but I'll bet someone is running a blower on one save yoursel some cash over the SDS perhaps?

[Guest Anonymous]

jeronimo, you got it.. The bypass valve takes the pressurized air that was heading towards the throttle body, and dumps it back on the intake side of the turbo, near the MAF and air filter.