Electromotive Work-Alike Ignition?

[DAW]

I've noticed that several car mfgs use a sensor-triggered distributorless ignition system (e.g. Buick 3.8 V6) whose components look just like TEC-II externally. Does anyone know if these systems are functionally the same? Did Electromotive sell the design to Buick, Saturn, etc?

I picked up a Buick set-up at no cost and was thinking of using an '81 L28ET damper & TDC sensor unit to put together an ignition system for my na L28. Any experience with these ignitions, altering maps, etc?

DAW

[240Z Turbo]

Yes, Electromotive liscensed that stuff to those guys.

[Guest scca]

from what i gather a new TEC III is now out. wonder if it has made it easier to setup??

 

always the TECII drawback...difficulty in inital setup

[DAW]

That's what I suspected, that Electromotive licensed their product to GM, etc. Has anyone pirated one of these factory systems to use on a hybrid Z car? If so, is the wiring schematic available?

DAW

[240Z Turbo]

That does not sound correct. There is no reason your motor cannot run smoothly with the Electromotive. I have been running the Tech for about 4 years and never have had a problem of losing part of the map. That does not sound possible. Things that do happen are people not properly grounding the tech chasis and the coils spark over and cause the tech to cut off or momentarily stumble. I think the problems you hear of are from people who do not know how to program a fuel system period. You don't so much need an understanding of the Tech software as you do the basic principles of fuel and timing. Hell, having never used the Haltech I spent 1night looking over the software and then tuned my buddies Honda Racecar and made 554hp@wheels and the car went 10.31@142. If someone knows how to tune the Tech your car will run like a champ and have no problems. It is true that you can constantly try to dial in the car for every last hp, but once the tuning is done, you need not jack with it again. Here is another story. I tuned a GN powered Malibu for a friend running the Tech. When he ran the stock GN computer the car went 12.25@116 with about 23psi of boost. After installing the tech and me spending only a few hours of total tuning on the car it went 12.35@111 with only 13psi of boost. Anyway, I know TimZ will jump in and give his inputs as well. I will admit that the tech software is not the most user friendly, but if you know how to tune your car should run fine. BTW, the Tech III will not be out for atleast 6 more months.

[johnc]

The problem I saw could easily be tuner/driver error. Another admittedly anecdotal story: Vic Sias lost all of his fuel/ignition map above 5,000 rpm on the first day of the 1999 San Diego Solo2 National Tour and he had to fix it in his hotel room. He lost a great chance to win the two day event. Why did he lose the map? I don't know. Again, it could be his mistake.

 

I've never personally used any Electromotive product and am really only relaying what the engine builders above told me and what I've seen. Vic Sias has won bunches of Solo2 championships with his TWM/Tec2 setup so it does work well. Also, the engine builders I list above are distributers for competing engine management systems (Sunbelt - DTA, JG - Motec, DL Potter - ?)

 

As with any advice/opinion - YMMV...

[DAW]

There are a whole bunch of those Buicks & Saturns out there that I'm referring to and I haven't seen an inordinate number of those cars off on the side of the road, which bespeaks Electromotive dependability and reliability. SDS is fine too, although GM didn't buy rights to their product.

What I want to know is how can I get something for nothing?? i.e., pull a scrapyard Electromotive system and use it on my hotrod Datsun Z without spending an arm and/or a leg?

DAW

[TimZ]

Well, James already said what needed to be said re: the TEC. I agree. The TEC2 software has never been that great, but if you have datalogging capability, it's not that hard to figure out, assuming you are interested in figuring it out in the first place.

 

Oh- and I've had my TEC for as long as James has (a little longer, actually ), and I have not had the 'losing a map' problem, either. I'm guessing what happened there was that the file on the laptop got corrupted, and subsequently downloaded (maybe user error, maybe something else). The E-motive software gives you no method of actually uploading a calibration from the TEC, so this must have been inferred from what was shown on the screen.

 

One other thing - the GM ignitions are very similar to the Electromotive ignitions, but one key difference is that they don't use the 60 tooth timing wheel. As I recall, they needed a pair of pickups - a 3 tooth ( for a six cylinder) and a 24 tooth, although I think that one of these was used for the accompanying fuel injection system (can't remember which). What this means is that the 'real' Electromotive system will have less timing scatter, especially under rapidly changing engine RPM/manifold pressures.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure that you realized this, but the junkyard piece will be the ignition only - you will still have to come up with the FI system (assuming you wanted one).

 

[ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: TimZ ]

[DAW]

Thanks, yeah I know I'm talking ignition only on the salvage parts, but that's what I'm after. I've got an optical trigger (Crane) set-up on my Solo II Street Prepared early Z, (high compression, triple Solexes, 4.44) and I just want to bump up a notch on the ignition. Has anyone used a L28ET engine mgmt (computer) system, including knock-sensor retard, on a high compression na L28E?

DAW

[johnc]

I talked with 3 engine builders (Javier at JG Engine Dynamics, Don Potter at DL Potter, and Jim Thompson at Sunbelt) and they all suggested I stay away from the Electromotive Tec2. Inital setup, stability, and maintenance of the fuel and ignition maps were their biggest complaint. I've seen, first hand, sections of the maps "disappear" from a Tec2 configuration while a car was running - talk about a "flat spot"! Hopefully Electromotive has corrected that with the Tec3.

[BLKMGK]

I've heard both good and bad about Electromotive. The guys over there are pretty nice though (mere blocks from my home BTW) but I'm told they build systems better than they can tune them (lol). I've waffled over buying one of their setups for years and have mostly turned away from them due to their high software charges. Now that the software is free and updated over the WEB I'm MUCH more interested in their setups and MAY put one on the Z this Winter.

 

Losing portions of the map IS possible - with any system actually. If you've not grounded the chassis correctly and it gets zapped it could easily dump some portion of the EEPROM. Electromotive systems have apparently had problems with the bus bar system of attaching wires and some potting issues I've een told but are overall pretty decent systems. The software is VERY sophoisticated and I think their system is one of the few that can run MAF. The ability to program itself on the fly is also very nice for getting a base map, I wish others were accurate enough to do that!

 

Would love ot hear from others using the systems as to the quirks in the software. Anyone know much about the TECIII? It sounds good on paper but... Anyon spoken to them about it? Once my car is on the road I may swing by there and speak to them about it

[Guest Anonymous]

If you want your tech II set up right you need a DYNO .Personally I don't like too piss into the wind you get all wet .You can screw with the adjustments all day ,but if you use a dyno 3 too 4 pulls you are DONE.SET IT AND FORGET IT!!!! Need a dyno in DC area HPWORKS of Colonial beach VA 804-214-9063 Ask for Jr . They will set your tech up right the first time! How many of you can say that you have seen a volkswagon bug 4 cyl produce 1000 + HP blown 50 lbs boost + runs on alcohol 5.3 in the 1/8th of the trailer !! Also a snowmobile which runs 9's in the 14 .Plain and simple if you KNOW what you are doing you will have no problems with the Tech II .

[BLKMGK]

Cerberus, what other EFI systems do they work with? Is the TEC their preferred system over all others? Have you heard anything on the TEC III? I'm blocks from them and have heard NOTHING - yet. I know where a dyno is being setup in Manassas but it will NOT be offering much in the way of EFI tuning yet, possibly on Mustangs in the future. Presently they send Mustangs up to NJ for tuning but will be working a service via FAX with those guys.

 

If you know much about the TEC II please share - we've had several threads talking about it and other EFI solutions.

[Guest Anonymous]

BLKMGK I post what I know ! I asked Jr this morning too post here but It doesn't look good ! I can try too answer what I know .Yes they work with other systems too .Yes they pefer Electromotive .They were one of the first too use and install . If you are in a rush FORGET IT !!!!!! Also One thing Jr did say DO NOT USE THE WINTECH SOFTWARE !! It SUCKS . you are about an hour from them being in Mannassasasasasss .I'm in Silver Spring .If I can Help I will .

[D83ZXT]

Now you guys are scaring me with the Wintec.

I just upgraded my Tech. from a DOS program chip to Wintech chip.

 

Donna

[TimZ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cerberus:

If you want your tech II set up right you need a DYNO .Personally I don't like too piss into the wind you get all wet .You can screw with the adjustments all day ,but if you use a dyno 3 too 4 pulls you are DONE.SET IT AND FORGET IT!!!!

---

 

I'm afraid I have to disagree with this.

 

IF you use the datalogging features intelligently, you can do a very respectable job, without the aid of a dyno.

 

As far as 3 to 4 dyno pulls to get a good calibration, I don't think so. IF you started with a calibration that was pretty close, then yes, you can do some very impressive things with a few dyno pulls. But, to say that you can start from scratch, do 4 dyno pulls, and be all done is dreaming.

 

The trouble is that dyno testing (at least with inertial dynos) is really only helpful for full power calibration, which is a very small part of the big picture. It doesn't do very much at all for part throttle driveability, transient response, cold start, etc. - the stuff that you actually need 98% of the time.

 

Granted, if you were talking about a more sophisticated dyno that could load the vehicle at constant speeds, then you could do alot more good with dyno runs. But in this case, you'd still need ALOT more than 4 runs.

 

Don't get me wrong - dyno testing is a powerful tool, but it's not the only thing you need.

 

Oh - hopefully this was obvious, but this applies to tuning any fuel/ignition system, not just the TEC.

 

As far as the TECIII goes, the only things I've heard about it were along the lines of "Don't hold your breath".

[BLKMGK]

I've NOT tuned on a dyno but I have tuned on the street. Drivability tuning is THE hardest to do and the dyno alone won't do this. OEMs spend zillions doing this part of the tuning - WOT is apparently much easier.

 

FWIW - the Ford guy doing the chips for the folks here has been known to gain 80HP in a single shot. This is LaRocca I'm talking about up in NJ so the guy does know what he's doing. If he didn't do this sort of thing all the time he'd probably have a tougher time. He's tuning off of a stock OEM EEC V curve too so he's got a pretty good baseline to work from. This is one of the reasons why I've liked the idea of using a stock ECU and something like LT1Edit. Having a good tuner's baseline to work from would be much the same I'd guess. Experience counts for a lot, having tried to tune my own car I can attest to that.

 

Lastly, the dyno my friend just purchased is an inertial dyno - a Dynotech unit. I had always thought they couldn't do steady state tuning too but his has come with an added "new" software option that can apparently do this. We've not tested the dyno yet as it's still being setup but if this is true and it works this might allow for driveability tuning. I'll let everyone know how it works out...

[Guest Anonymous]

I've seen the numbers And my friend sets up electromotive all day long . I've seen too many turn arounds too know different .You can't beat a dyno PERIOD ! I've seen too many happy faces leave the shop than I can count. Unless you are runnin some crazed blown machine if you do the math 3 or 4 pulls.GM paid royalties I wonder why ?

[240Z Turbo]

The fact that GM paid to use the coil pack stuff has nothing to do with the ability to tune a motor in 3 or 4 dyno passes. There is no way in hell you can correctly tune in such few passes. I have been using the system for 4 years and have some experience dyno tuning the Electromotive and Haltech. Even if you could optimize your parameters with some design of experiment it would still take alot of dyno pulls to determine the optimal timing, fuel and cam timing under WOT that achieved the best results. This is only 1 small area in the whole tuning process. I personally find it best to dial it in on the street and only use the dyno to determine optimal cam timing and then to see what types of AFR I am getting under full boost. Nobody is trying to knock you or your buddy, but it is just not realistic to think that 3-4 pulls will accomplish much. Hell, it usually takes that many pulls before I can get the tech to even read properly on the dyno!

[240Z Turbo]

Oh, so in 3-4 passes they can somehow optimize the timing, optimize the AFR for all 64 points in the VE table, set all the acceleration enrichments correctly, set all decel enrichements, optimize TOG and IOT and correctly setup all breakpoints for driveability. I apologize, what was I thinking to doubt such abilities. Can the guy tuning also pull a rabbit out of his butt? Anyone can setup a conservative timing curve and dump too much fuel and have the car run. I was talking about properly tuning. Anyway, no big deal I guess I am wrong. Later!