pparaska Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 I'm wondering about Holley's 4Di Projection setup. They advertise a 4 bbl one that's 900 cfm good for 350-500 hp. Jegs lists it as PN 510-950-21S. Holley's site is hosed and all the links to it that I can find are broken. A V8Z bud (Glen McCoy) that was over to help with the start of my engine the other day mentioned that he had an older version of it, and for what it cost ($500 then - a slow computer with FI only, no ignition) it was pretty nice on a 350 hp motor. I'm around 350 hp now (according to Desktop Dyno) and I'm thinking that for $1400, everything included (except for some fuel line I'd need to run, maybe), it'd be a nice upgrade from my Mt. Vesuvius carb . I know that it's not multipoint, but I'm not looking for the end all to efficiency, etc. I do want good tuneability though, and I'm looking for info on whether this system has a decent set of features that anyone is aware of from experience, etc. I'm just thinking about doing something like this in the next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike kZ Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 I put a 2 barrel version on a '83 El Camino I had. I liked it, it worked very well. Mine had small pots to make adjustments, plus I added a close loop system that was extra. That was my first endever into EFI, and it worked out well. Just make sure anything that's grounded is grounded very well! I had a few that weren't and it messed things up. ------------------ http://members.tripod.com/~SnowSurfer/mikekz1.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 Why not an sds? It'd cost more initially, but it'll get rid of your distributor, do ignition, be more adjustable, and work on any v8 engine in the future. Probably make more power with better ignition and fuel control too.... And it'll free up a lot of space above your engine where the carb is and let you run a better intake..... ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted January 9, 2001 Author Share Posted January 9, 2001 As far as I'm aware, SDS is for port injection no? If I need a port injection manifold, I'd need to spend some big bucks. I guess I could use the 4bbl TBI part from Holley (it flows better than the stock offerings) and use it with SDS? That way I could have the other benefits of SDS and a simple injector housing/throttle plate bolt on? I'm REAL IGNORANT of any injection stuff, bear with me, please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 Yeah, but it's not a big deal. Either find an OE port manifold or weld injector bungs into any manifold you want and get a throttle body that fits on a carb flange on top. The injectors and manifold work/replacement are the only things that will make sds singificantly more expensive than a port injection thingie, but sds is more adjustable, does ignition as well(And gets rid of the distributor, which is nice), and probably will make more power. ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted January 9, 2001 Author Share Posted January 9, 2001 Definitely a possibility. The problem (for me) is that the manifolds are expensive, and I don't do TIG to make my own. Having them made is expensive as well. Just wondering if the SDS could use the 4bbl Holley TBI part? BTW, the 4Di does ignition too. I believe it could be set up with crank trigger. I'd be satisfied just leaving the distributor, but locking out the mechanical and vacuum advance for the time being. I guess this question is: Is the SDS is more tunable than the 4Di (for fuell and igntion)? I prefer a laptop tunable system (I think), if it's user friendly enough. I'm decent with computer stuff, so it doesn't scare me away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 You already have a manifold on your engine! Just get some injector bungs and weld them in and a throttle body that fits on a carb flange. I dunno how they compare adjustibility-wise, but I would ASSume that the sds is more adjustable, but who knows. ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted January 10, 2001 Author Share Posted January 10, 2001 True, it's just that putting in injector bunges seems, getting fuel rails made, etc. - well I was looking for something simpler to do and ALMOST as good as port injection. My questions have become: 1) Is a good TBI far from port injection, as far as drivability, performance, response to tuning changes? The 900 cfm throttle body seems plenty big and the four 85 lb/hr injectors ought to handle everything I need? 2) Does anyone have experience with tuning one of these (current design) Pro-Jections? I'll ask other places, just looking here. If it's not tunable enough for me, I'd be disappointed. THe write up they have at http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/AV/FMS/FMSFI/504-21S.html looks enticing though. They say it has infinite adjustment of the fuel and spark maps, but give 5 preset fuel maps and 1 preset ignition map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 10, 2001 Share Posted January 10, 2001 I wouldn't bother with tbi, but I'm anal. 4x85lb/hour is a lot, enough fuel for 500-600 horsepower easily. Port injection will give better drivability and emissions, more control, and probably a bit more power, but if tbi didn't work at least somewhat then it would never have been used in the first place! 900cfm throttle? It depends on what pressure drop that flow rating is made at. If it's made at 10psi pressure drop then no, if it's made at 0.001psi then it's pretty big. Flow ratings are worthless without knowing at what pressure drop the ratings were measured at. ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted January 10, 2001 Author Share Posted January 10, 2001 Since it's Holley, I'd bet that the rating for 900cfm is what they'd use for their carbs - 1.5 psi? This is looking pretty decent. The issue is does it work as well as they say and how easy is it to learn how to tune (depends on the user for sure!) I like it because it has laptop tunability. They do have an in-car module you can buy to do less-fine tuning without a PC, but I'd just buy a used laptop instead! I also like the fact that it seems to take O2 sensor and knock sensor inputs and use them for close loop operation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike kZ Posted January 10, 2001 Share Posted January 10, 2001 I think you'll like it, even though I had the smaller 2 bbl version, it was easy to adjust. Starting was much better, gas mileage went up, so did power! Plus it's an easy install. Multipoint EFI is better, but it does cost more, and is a bit more complicated. ------------------ http://members.tripod.com/~SnowSurfer/mikekz1.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Bayley Posted January 10, 2001 Share Posted January 10, 2001 Pete, When I was working for what used to be Holley, I talked this system over quite a bit with one of the original Technicians on the projects (the engineers were long gone). This indiviual was(is) a DIE HARD carb man, but he would stand by the Pro-Jection. His major comments were to get an O2 sensor and make it into a closed loop system. I'm not sure if all newer systems run closed loop or not, but it's something you might want to check out. Also commented were the factory fuel maps. I guess the maps and tables were layed out rather simply and they are "supposed" to be rather easy to modify. One gripe, however, that he did have with the system wazs that beyween 30 and 35 degrees, the throttle body would occasionally freeze over. Ah, the wonders of having vaporized fuel spraying all over a rotating shaft. Now I remember why I switched to software... Anyway, contact me off-line if you want this guys e-mail address. I don't think he would BS'ing about it. (use this address, the one on this board is out-dated) agbayley@hotmail.com -Andy P.S. Hey look, I eclipsed the 200 posts mark! Only 1000 more to catch up with Mike! [This message has been edited by Andrew Bayley (edited January 10, 2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted January 10, 2001 Share Posted January 10, 2001 quote: Originally posted by pparaska: I'm REAL IGNORANT of any injection stuff, bear with me, please. Pete, you have seen all the EFI threads we've generated and a lot within last few months. I'll put my quick spin on your questions that I saw as follows: 4Di worthwhile at new cost? 4Di TBI worthwhile in comparison to multiport? value of SDS or others not too much more $? I had a (700 or 900, don't recall, it's the injectors that count BTW!) 4Di I got in great/as new shape for $350US with both the pot controller old ECM and new ECM/laplink setup (yes good deal, I'm patient). Never installed it and sold it to a friend as I learned I wanted MPEFI and didn't want to bother setting one system up (and buy a laptop) to later do the MPEFI setup. Pete knows my expenditures usually so that might help. Power is made not by any max cylinder but by all cylinders being as EQUAL in power as possible. This creates a gorgeous balance of smoothness that just lends to more power. MPEFI can give every cylinder the EXACT same shot of fuel to help create all bangs as equal as possible (just suck bang blow here). I did a lot of background on 4di (have some archived at home) and the analog version is not worth it for custom motors as it's tuneability is v. poor with only the pots. Digital is great for tuning with newer software versions of recent that you can view it on 3D graphs and 'grab' a point on a graph and 'pull' that surrounding region as your adjustment etc. With advent of ProFlo I no longer see the same value in the 4Di. I was stuck at doing a custom EFI setup but that throttle body issue is ridiculous at what they're sold for. $4-$500 for a throttle body? Get real, carbs with same design and a lot more involved sell for far less. I"m sure price will drop as more units come out etc but till then......no laptop with Proflo, you get MPEFI using cheap (but reliable) OE sensors (ford and gm FWIW) and injectors on a v. proven manifold (factor in manifold cost as it's not in 4di and you can sell yours). You gain much better fuel control and now have a dry manifold so can port/polish to your hearts content if you like to improve efficiency and power (many don't know these go hand in hand, most here do). As well being 'dry' you can use a short runner single plane intake like a Vic. Jr as proflo does as you're NOT losing bottom end so will now support your bottom fine but will NOT impeded your topend. (fact that edelbrock uses their advertised '3-8000rpm' intake for their 'standard' sbc package now convince anyone it's actually fine at <3k;^), it's always worked fine down their....) I"M quite certain 4Di has no fuel cutoff as proflo does (proflo has a soft touch rev limiter and fuel cutoff on decel that work nicely for improved mileage, with all my accelerating I do a lot of decelerating so that alone will really benefit me). Their timing control is similar to 4Di but SDS needs that crank trigger. HEI mods for proflo or 4Di are easy/cheap not an additional cost/concern. SDS is 'just' a brain and harness, for a V8 the 'others' add up to at least cost of proflo for a 400hp sbc (injectors/tb are big costs as can be a good plumbed intake). The ease with which non sbc guys can use other throttle bodies makes the SDS great for them. So 4Di is ~$1225US AIR? $150 for any decent laptop (may as well get something you can use when travelling if need be), $200 for a good intake and you're up to $1575. The $1925 'new' sticker for proflo IMO more than justifies your 'big' jump to MPFI with the efi Vic. Jr., injectors/rails/tb/fuel pump/3/8's alum. line etc. Find it used and the value goes up:-) I ran thru this as I know you (Pete) like to arrive at a 'final' vision of what you want and given your in depth preview/analysis/alteration of your car as is I doubt the 4Di would satisfy your nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 10, 2001 Share Posted January 10, 2001 FWIW, fuel doesn't freeze, throttles freeze up from moisture condensing out of the air in the low pressure venturis. This would also indicate that the holley stuff has higher flow losses if they have a freezing problem. Pete: sds does ignition also, which would be a HUGE benefit in my book - better control than points or some crazy electronic ignition module, more reliable, and no distributor. ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted January 10, 2001 Share Posted January 10, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Morgan: All other things being equal, why would you want a laptop? It's just extra weight/work/hassle! Umm... Three reasons: 1) datalogging 2) datalogging 3) datalogging Really, I can understand SDS proponents not being interested in using a laptop for various reasons, and that's fine. However, Pete has indicated that he IS interested in using datalogging, which says to me that he is capable of operating a PC, and the he understands how to read data plots. Why would you want to discourage this? When you understand how to use datalogs to your advantage, all things are no longer equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 10, 2001 Share Posted January 10, 2001 I would happily give up some crazy datalogging stuff for simplicity and ignition control..... I just can't imagine the software tools on such a relatively unknown and inexpensive system being too terribly fancy. And why add complexity when it's not necessary? Sure it's nice, but I'd prefer to get it 99% close and spend more time driving than constantly fiddling with minute adjustments to eke the last 2hp and 0.4mpg out of an engine. And, since it doesn't do ignition, you can't adjust ignition or log it. That's 1/2 your engine control that it doesn't do! Plus port injection is superior to tbi in every regard('cept for maybe cost), and I would question the ability of even the most advanced tbi system to accurately and evenly meter fuel........ I assume it works be pulsing the injectors right? If so, then uneven fuel distribution between the cyclinder seems to be a real possibility. Also keep in mind that perhaps the holley stuff is probably not upgradable... ie. max out the fuel system and I would assume you're SOL on it. With an sds system you can easily get larger injectors and re-tune. With an sds you can easily turbo/super charge the engine as well should that desire arise. And sds won't have the restriction of a holley carb-looking throttle/venturi. Numerous people have shown that sds is quite adequate, and since pete doesn't have a heavily turbocharged engine, instantly destroying it with a bit of pinging or whatever isn't a big concern. Logging might speed the tuning process, but it is far from a necessity. ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 Factor in the cost of a laptop and whatnot and an sds quickly becomes comparable in price I bet. sds can use an o2 sensor for closed loop as well... nothing magic about that. All other things being equal, why would you want a laptop? It's just extra weight/work/hassle! ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted January 11, 2001 Author Share Posted January 11, 2001 I haven't priced a used laptop, but yes that adds up. It seems that sds and the 4Di system have about the same functionality, with regards to sensors; O2, knock, etc. The issue is that in my opinion the SDS interface is cumbersome, from what I've read about it on their site. Granted, I know nothing about the 4Di laptop software, but if they paid a decent programmer, it ought to be more useable, albeit have the same tuneability and probably more, since user input is so much easier with a keyboard, screen and mouse than the SDS console. As for weight/work/hassle, I don't see it as a big deal, especially if I can tune easier and have datalogging (which they provide, although I don't know the details on what's logged and how well). A laptop is not much weight or size, and it just plugs in. Stow it under the seat if I have to, but this isn't a daily driver, so that's not a big issue for me, security or otherwise. Just my preferences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted January 11, 2001 Author Share Posted January 11, 2001 Morgan, I'll say it again - the Holley 4Di has ignition control, and supposedly very fine control of it. Yes it's with a dizzy, but I don't mind that. I think Ross has hit the nail on the head - I'd end up not being satisfied with TBI. He knows how picky I am about things being done optimally, and the compromise of TBI over port injection is not worth the $500-$1000 savings to me. If it were $500 or $600, I would probably do it. Maybe I'll start hunting on ebay . And TimZ is right - I want datalogging and easy control that the SDS doesn't provide. I have no doubt it's a fine system though, I just want a more interactive interface than the SDS module/box provides. Yes, I'm picky to a fault. That's been proven over and over again. Unfortunately, the Pro-Flo makes a compromise I'd not be satisfied with either - no PC control and needing custom chips. It looks like the carb will stay until either I have enough money for an Electromotive setup, etc. (not likely!) or one of the other available systems is upgraded to have the power capability (400+hp), software, etc., and reasonable price that I desire. It WILL happen, and I'd imagine it won't be long. This segment of the performance industry is growing in leaps and bounds. Thanks for all the help, but the slightly controlled fuel leak (carb) will stay for now. This has been a intersting thread. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 quote: Originally posted by pparaska: Yes it's with a dizzy, but I don't mind that. And TimZ is right - I want datalogging and easy control that the SDS doesn't provide. Unfortunately, the Pro-Flo makes a compromise I'd not be satisfied with either - no PC control and needing custom chips. Just a few add on comments Pete: -I'm with you, I'd actually prefer my HEI dizzy any day over any balancer adjustments (magnets etc) and wiring up front where I have a VERY clean area and do not want ANY wiring down their either. If I change balancer/pulley setups I want it to stay simple/easy. HEI dizzy's I'm very familiar with and don't mind using it with an internal sensor etc (I don't need higher accuracy) SDS seems to provide easy control has been the general consensus is it not? Edelbrock's proflo 'custom' chip is not so custom always. They offer a range of chips and their SOLE purpose to the diehard tuners is to get you going. If you want to stick with your chip's setup that's fine but they're generally a get you up and started in your general range purpose. I'm not ordering one, found one I can swap for the one mine came with that's meant for my ZZ4 cam EXACTLY:-) I'll still tickle it a fair bit as I'm running some mods to charm 50+ more easy hp out of the profile. No matter what system you go with you need some kind of baseline to get going, I like knowing I can order/find/swap for a chip that'll get me pretty close in my ballpark. Knowing the performance I got/get from my V8 with a controlled fuel leak I know I doubt I'll ever feel the need for datalogging as the gains I'll experience should be adequate for myself:-) Their were some comments on this thread or another about 'closed loop' being v. good. I'm not in such agreement. Closed loop (correct me if this has changed) is based on your ECU trying to maintain A/F at 14.7 stoich right? Lately their's quite a bit of evidence that at cruise engines (varies among builds) can tolerate up to 17.0 A/F which leads to FAR greater mpg/efficiency, so unless you can alter the closed loop 'target' ratio I wouldn't get to excited about it. I'd instead be progressively altering my cruise/higher vacc A/F while monitoring my O2 sensor and related temps/knock etc. just my .02c and as always open to feedback ------------------ Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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