Guest jt240z Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 James, I posted to you personally in order to not waist this forums time. Since you do choose too, then so be it. I stand by what I said both on this forum and too you personally. My point, and I stay by it, is that this forum was and still is designed to provide a location for the exchange of information. Your original post was of no information, only a cocky ass attitude that you presented and the statement that I needed to learn more. Well, the reason I posted in the first place was too learn more. I picked up my first T3/T4 turbo for next to nothing off of eBay in order to get the car up and running. It wasn't ideal, but did what I needed it to do. It still works well , but I'm looking for more now. So here I come to the hybrid Z group for some help. Then I walk straight into you. DAM! You may consider that if, I'm not the only person having issues with your postings, then the problem is more systemic. My issues with you are not that of information, but that of delivery. I would bet that this is why so many, as you put it, have problems with your posts. This thread is now worthless and any information that would have been presented will surely be suppressed. Too bad since some others, like myself, that may not be as greatly knowledgeable and wise as you are, are certain to not benefit from this topic of discussion. I have learned something from this thread and thanks to those who chose to contribute without having to slap me in the face. Some people just have to feel big by standing on top others. As for the FSU statement, what do you expect from an alumni GA Tech. Guy. Flame away. I just don't care anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JAMIE T Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 hmm... I was watching this thread to see which T4 would be ideal for our L6 engines. I admit, I am dissapointed in the manner it played out. I do think 240Z Turbo could have simply recommended a differant turbo other than the one JT240Z was looking at. I honestly sounded like a personal attack from his first post. JT240Z never said he knew much about turbo's, and that IS the reason he posted the question in the first place. He had not bought it. He just wanted some opinions. I to would like to put a T4, or hybrid on my L6. I don't know much about turbocharging, other than what I have read(in books and on-line). Which, at this time, does not equal the first hand experience others here have. Namely 240Z Turbo, Tim Z, and plenty others. I had to vent this, as I am VERY dissappointed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clint78z Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Everyone take a chill pill, mabey some bran in the diet wouldn't hurt. It's good to keep an open mind, because there is some good info here. Just because ppl's views differ, or somone said something that you didn't like doesn't mean you still can't learn things from them. I personally have learn things from a person who I would call a moron at work, hey they have to have some skill to survive. Hopefully it can be swept under the carpet, and go back to warm & fuzzy. Yes I think the hybrid T3/T04E can be done to make some very decent numbers 380hp is probably the limit. It will spool real nice and make a wonderful street car that is impressive. However if you have some $$$$ burning a hole in your pocket and want more the 60-1 gives you more room. However just the turbo isn't going to get you there, forged pistons, cam, arp studs.... It won't spool as fast, but hell you are getting an extra 60hp which most ppl don't care. It's still wicked fast on the street, just a smidge more lag. Personally I don't have budget to use a 60-1, so an nice little hybrid T3/T04e-57mm is more suited to my package. I am screwed if I want that extra power, and will have to buy a new turbo if it ever comes to that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jt240z Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 These look like reasonable numbers. My goal is to shoot for about 350RWHP Right now I'm about 70HP short at 14psi. I have plenty of expansion room based on injector size(550cc), fuel management (Haltech E6K) and intercooler (Skyline GT-R). The turbo and exhaust pipes were the only questionable areas. The one I have is running out of steam, just as things get interesting. As I increased boost above 14psi, the turbo got very inefficient. I'm hoping to be able to make 350 HP with 18psi. So far the consensus here is still a T3/T04 hybrid, but this time a T04E 57 trim or 60-1. Looks like the T3 with a stage III GT trim would work out well. I just got off the phone with Dave at Turbonetics. His recommendations were a bit different. He recommended staying with the T04B and going with a Supper H wheel. The turbine section was the same as others have recommended which is a Stage III GT 10 blade. He thought that the stage V would spool slower and not give me any benefit. All this was based on being able to salvage my T3/T04B turbo and just do the upgrade. Looks like I may be sending my turbo off to Turbonetics soon. The good side is that I bought a good turbo for this upgrade. I have the water cooled center section I wanted and the T3 turbine and T04b housings are usable. I only paid $310 for the rebuilt turbo in the first place, so I didn't loose much. Once I get it back (3 to 7 days) it should just bolt right up with no modifications. The T04E I was told would need some additional grinding on the manifold to fit. After I get it back and dynoed, I'll post the results again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo2001 Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 This is what I've been told. Go with T04E not B. You'll have more potential HP that way. 57 trim is nice but you can go with 60 trim or 60-1. And 10 blade StageIII, not a turbonetic unit but Garrett unit. It's little different. Unless turbonetic came up with newer design. God, I need money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgkurz Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Hello all, I've been following the technical side of this thread closely and it seems there may be some misunderstanding about the compressor wheels. As I understand it the 60-1 is a T04B compressor wheel where the 57 or 60 is a T04E wheel. As I look at the compressor map for the 60-1 wheel it certainly supports a higher max HP/airflow, 65lbs/min versus 50lbs/min with a T04E 60 trim. My observation is that the 60-1 is less efficient through the map than the T04E series, basically small efficiency islands. Maybe this is over analyzing, but maybe it also means the T04E 60 trim is a better fit for a engine up to say 450HP. My estimation is the T04E will have less turbo lag and a lower intake charge temp than it's T04B equivalent up to 450 flywheel hp. This is only bench racing as I have little real time experience. My car has a T04E 50 Trim with a "secret" turbine wheel. It's a Jim Wolf "Sport 400". Unfortunately they would not divulge any details on the turbine wheel. I'm guessing it's a stage 3 or better. JWT is confident it will support 400 flywheel HP, but I haven't been able to put it to the test yet. It spools much faster than a stock L28ET. For those folks who want the BIG hp the 60-1 or T series would be a better choice. Just my .02C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo2001 Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 I thought the 60-1 is T series wheel? But no I think I know which turbine wheel JWT400 has but I can't be sure. So I'm not going to blur out. But I was looking at about that size turbo when I need to upgrade. How do you like your set up? your turbo and TEC3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgkurz Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Hi yo2001, It's easy to get all the different turbo models mixed up. There is a T61 and a 60-1. They are different compressor wheels, but have similar maps. Regarding my setup, the Tec3 is a great fit for a Z car. It's basically a Tec2 with a few more bells and whistles and more intuitive software. I'm very happy so far, but it was extremely expensive. My ability to tune and adjust the EFI seem infinite which is a good thing to me. As for the JWT "Sport 400" turbo, it spools very quickly and supports a decent amount of HP. If I had to do it all over again I'd probably should have gone with a T04B 60-1 or T04E 60. The wastegate was another matter. When I built the car I wasn't a "HybridZ" member and didn't know anyone who had experience with adding an external wastegate on the stock exhaust manifold. Instead, I chose to modify the stock wastegate to support more HP. I actually line bored the turbine housing wastegate vent hole then fabricated a larger flapper valve. So far it has worked well. I don't have a electronic boost controller yet so the jury is still out. What's your guess on the turbine wheel on my setup? I won't hold you to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clint78z Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 This can be a confusing subject, turbo designation refers mainly to the compressor side. When I refer to my hybrid turbo it is a T3/T04E-57mm with stage III turbine with .63 a/r. This means the turbine is a T3 design which is smaller, is mated with the larger T04E compressor series with a 57mm compressor wheel in it. You can have a non Hybrid T04E and T04B, which uses the larger T04 turbine. These are usual O, P trim. When every one here recomends the 60-1, they are recomending the non the full T4 not a hybrid. T04B 60-1 with probably a Ptrim turbine. Clear as mud ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgkurz Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 When every one here recomends the 60-1, they are recomending the non the full T4 not a hybrid. T04B 60-1 with probably a Ptrim turbine. Clear as mud ?? clint78z, Are you saying the T04B 60-1 compressor is not recommended as a hybrid with a T3 turbine? I was looking at this as an upgrade path but wanted to keep my current T3 .63 A/R Stage??? turbine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clint78z Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 My first recomendation is to do a big search in the archives here, find a combo that someone else has that has the kind of power you want. Then take note of what they run for turbo, intercooler .... I am not going to come right out and say that a hybrid 60-1 isn't going to get you what you want. I have never tried that and simply haven't proved that. IMHO it doesn't seem like the greatest combo here's my lazer guided guess. The 60-1 compressor isn't as effecient as some of the others down low, but has good horsepower potential. If you put on the smaller turbine you will limit hp potential because there will be too much backpressure on the exhaust side. So either stay with the hybrid and choose a more effecient wheel down low, or make that jump to full T04 with the 60-1. Please jump in if I am wrong here, I think that's what everyone is gettting at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo2001 Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 What's your guess on the turbine wheel on my setup? I won't hold you to it. Should be 10 blade Stage V but one that I've seen was T04E with 60 trim wheel. Or 10 blade Stage III, either way should be 10 blade. (I gave myself a little room to breath there ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest storm280z Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 some can i buy that turbo or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 Hi All, I just thought I might add something here that some people may not know, or had thought of. If you happen to buy a turbo from a different app, (RX7, 2.3 Ford,or even a full on t4,Etc.) with the wrong AR. like .96!!!, don't forget that you can always buy the correct size housing from your local turbo repair house. On the garrett T3 and T4 turbos these are very easy to change out. I have a T4 60-1 P-trim that I got with a .82 turbine housing and this seems a little big, so I am going to pick up a .70 and a .58 with the v-band flanges and try them both to see wich one I like best. Cheers, Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jt240z Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 Good thought Mike, Some times you have to think just a little different in order to take advantage of some good deals. Many people wont buy a turbo that doesn't meet there needs in the present state. This could drive the price way down in some cases. The cost of an upgrade plus the original cost of the turbo MAY be less then buying the one you needed outright. The buyer must understand what the costs are and make the decision based on that. I did just get done talking with a person that does turbo rebuilds, and has since 1979. He said that he could build me a T3/T04E to my specs for $560 shipped. What I asked him to quote was: Turbine T3 housing .63 A/R Stage III GT 10 blade wheel Internal waist gate Compressor T04E housing .60 A/R 57 trim wheel Water cooled center section He said no problem, Garretts are one of the easiest. I've just finished spending about $3100 to restore a 1972 240Z from the ground up. This includes the Haltech system and turbo motor upgrade. I acquired the car for $0 and began with that. With all the modifications I have in this car, most people would have spent well over $6000+. I waited for the right deals and bought as they came. At times I modified my plans based on what was available. I even painted my own car. In the process of doing this rebuild, I learn a lot. It took me two years to complete (if that can ever really happen) but it was worth it. Look for the deals that are out there and if it doesn't work out... then you can always sell it on eBay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianz Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Hello everyone, This thread could not have come at a better time, given that I just bought a Turbo for a future project, so I had a few questions looming after I read through the 3 pages of posts......(All pertaining to the Garrett units) 1. Are T3 and T4 designations for the size of the center section and turbine diameter?? if not then what is the specific difference between T3 and T4?? 2. Is the T04_ designation (i.e. T04E, T04B, etc..) describing the TYPE of compressor being used?? 3. The turbo I purchased is a Garrett T4 T04E Compressor A/R .50 Turbine A/R .69 O trim this is what I was told when I bought it, and addition information cast on the compressor housing is "A/R .50 M-12" and on the turbine "A/R .69 M 1" So based on this information, what is the trim designator describing (O versus P....etc...) and have I stated the specs of the Turbo correctly?? Is there a tech paper on the web that describes all of this terminology that someone can reference rather than having to waste time answering all of these questions??? Finally, I am planning on using this turbo on an L28T motor w/ a stroker crank, forged pistons and approx 7.5:1 compression. Injection/Ignition will be aftermarket (Tech 3, SDS, Magasquirt, etc...). Sufficient intercooler and 3" exhaust. I called a local shop and discussed this with them and have reviewed the map for the T04E .50 and based on this found that the turbo should produce 47 lb/min (thus 470 hp) @ 78% efficiency and the 3.1L motor should have sufficient flow volume to spool the turbo nicely... what do you think?? Thanks very much in advance for your info/expertise!! Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianz Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Hello everyone, This thread could not have come at a better time, given that I just bought a Turbo for a future project, so I had a few questions looming after I read through the 3 pages of posts......(All pertaining to the Garrett units) 1. Are T3 and T4 designations for the size of the center section and turbine diameter?? if not then what is the specific difference between T3 and T4?? 2. Is the T04_ designation (i.e. T04E, T04B, etc..) describing the TYPE of compressor being used?? 3. The turbo I purchased is a Garrett T4 T04E Compressor A/R .50 Turbine A/R .69 O trim this is what I was told when I bought it, and addition information cast on the compressor housing is "A/R .50 M-12" and on the turbine "A/R .69 M 1" So based on this information, what is the trim designator describing (O versus P....etc...) and have I stated the specs of the Turbo correctly?? Is there a tech paper on the web that describes all of this terminology that someone can reference rather than having to waste time answering all of these questions??? Finally, I am planning on using this turbo on an L28T motor w/ a stroker crank, forged pistons and approx 7.5:1 compression. Injection/Ignition will be aftermarket (Tech 3, SDS, Magasquirt, etc...). Sufficient intercooler and 3" exhaust. I called a local shop and discussed this with them and have reviewed the map for the T04E .50 and based on this found that the turbo should produce 47 lb/min (thus 470 hp) @ 78% efficiency and the 3.1L motor should have sufficient flow volume to spool the turbo nicely... what do you think?? Thanks very much in advance for your info/expertise!! Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianz Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Sorry for the double post Also, I was mistaken with the performance specs on the turbo, it should be 37 lb/min at a pressure ratio of 2.4 (i.e. about 20psi) and still be in the 78% efficiency zone..... cheers, Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Well... Thats quite a few questions. I suppose I could take a shot at this, even though I am kinda new around here. If any of this is wrong, or anyone has anything to add please don't hesitate.=) 1. I belive T3 and T4 are designations for center section size and exhaust housing size and type of mounting config. ie, bolt hole dimensions. (If you plan to use your stock cast manifold you will need to use some kind of adapter flange to go from the existing T3 to a T4 as well as add a wastegate outlet and mounting point) T3 may or may not have an integral wastegate.With a T4 you will need an external gate. 2. Yes, I belive the B series are the older designs and the E series are the newer more efficient designs. 3. O and P trim refer to the actual turbine diameter. According to Turbonetics, the major diameter, or inlet side of the turbine for both is the same @ 2.92". The exducers or outlets are different , O trim =2.29" and P trim=2.54 thus your power potential with the O trim may be less than with a P trim, depending on your wastegate selection of course.=) Also, keep in mind that even though the To4E-50 trim is rated @ 47 Lbs/Min. this is the maximum it will flow. Try to find a compressor map for it and you may see why I mention this. Sport Compact Car did an excellent series of articles on turbos culminating in the Sept. 01 issue which contains a wealth of information for anyone interested in this subject, you may want to try and find this back issue. Cheers, Mike. P.S. check out the Turbonetics website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgkurz Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Finally' date=' I am planning on using this turbo on an L28T motor w/ a stroker crank, forged pistons and approx 7.5:1 compression. Injection/Ignition will be aftermarket (Tech 3, SDS, Magasquirt, etc...). Sufficient intercooler and 3" exhaust. I called a local shop and discussed this with them and have reviewed the map for the T04E .50 and based on this found that the turbo should produce 47 lb/min (thus 470 hp) @ 78% efficiency and the 3.1L motor should have sufficient flow volume to spool the turbo nicely... what do you think?? [/quote'] Ian, If you want anything near 470HP DO NOT use a TO4E 50 Trim hybrid. I built nearly the exact engine you spec'd above and should have bought a much larger turbo. Experience shows that a T04E 50 trim compressor with the appropriate turbine will support around 350 - 375 flywheel HP. JWT says it will do 400HP, but I've yet to prove it on the dyno. My suggestion is to up your compression to at least 8:1, don't bore over 88mm and get at least a T04B 60-1 or a T60 if you want 470HP. This is just my opinion so everyone flame away if you think I'm giving bad advice. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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