4.11 swap in R-200

[brokebolt]

Another R-200 question, I did do a search with no specific results.

 

I am doing some parts swapping using a 1986 R-200 200SXT 4.111 ring and pinion and a 1983 R-200 280ZXT carrier. Basically trying to put the R-200 280ZXT carrier with carrier shims into a stock R-200 200SXT differential, with all other items staying put (bearings, housing, and such).

 

My question is this, do I need to shim the 4.111 ring gear 'only' out away from the 280ZXT carrier? If so how much would be needed? And finally is there any significant difference in the housings of the R-200 280ZXT vs. the R-200 200SXT?

 

The entire 280ZXT carrier with 3.545 ring and pinion in it's original housing is shimed on the passenger side between the outer carrier bearing and the housing. The 200SXT with 4.111 ring and pinion is shimed on the drivers side in the same manner. The half shafts reflect this shimming in penitration length. I need the 280ZXT haft shaft penitration length not the 200SXT set up as it is going into the 280ZXT car.

 

Currently on mock-up there is WAY too much backlash. My goal was to keep the 200SXT ring and pinion gear and drop the 280ZXT carrier into the 200SXT housing. Any help would be appriciated.

 

Mike

[Mike C]

What is the point of this swap? The SX MAY be a 12mm in which case your carrier won't work. I am assuming you have damaged the spider and side gears (or someone did)? If so, I would try and swap the guts from your ZX carrier into the SX carrier, then you can use all of the shims etc. that are with the 4.11 already and nothing has changed.

 

You should get the Nissan service manual and read up there. Check out some other online sources for info on setting up ring and pinion. Backlash should be .013-.018 which is REALLY loose compared to other diffs I have done. (If memory serves...)

 

Most likely shims are swapped around to adjust for the varying diameters of pinion gears. As gear ratio gets numerically larger, the pinion gets smaller so the ring gear has to be shifted closer to the centerline of the pinion. You will not want the same combination of carrier shims that the 3.54 uses on the 4.11 gear set. If you do use the complete ZX carrier, use the SX shims. Note, they should be a slight hammer fit in order to preload carrier bearings. ~ .010.

[brokebolt]

Thanks for responding...

 

The shims micrometer out about the same:

 

R-200 280ZXT left (drivers side) one shim at 2.8mm and right two shims, outer shim is 2.1mm and inner shim is 10mm.

 

R-200 200SXT left two shims, outer shim is 2.8mm and inner shim is 10mm and right one shim at 2.8mm.

 

Ring gear is difficult to get exact measurement but both look equal on the calipers or even a micrometer, too many angles for accurate numbers.

 

From your post it sounds like you don't shim the ring gear but the carrier itself. So does that mean when you swap ratio's around that you use 'only' the ring gear and not the pinion gear. Both 4.11 pinion and gear is stamped 37:90, I have a second 4.11 and it too is stamped the same. I though they were a matched set, the tooth count on the pinion is like 11 on the 4.11 vs. 17 (unsure of the exact numbers) on the 3.545.

 

I can put the 280 carrier in the 200 housing with either shims set no biggy but that means the CV's have the wrong spacing. The left doen't contact the clip and the right bottoms out before it is all the way inserted.

[brokebolt]

Mike thanks for responding,

 

As for using the ZXT carrier vs. the SXT I can see no difference, and both use the 10mm bolt. No damage, I was originally thinking the carrier was different but on closer inspection, I see none. I understand what your saying about the ring needing to be closer to the pinion. The SXT accomplished this by moving the carrier and shiming the unit exactly opposite of the 3.545 (I think more luck than mathamatical planning) and thus needing longer inputs on the CV's on the right and a shorter one on the left. The ZXT is just the opposite with short CV's on the left and longer on the right.

 

I would need to shim the carrier as to move it left to accomidate the ZXT CV's and the ring would need to be shimed right to accomidate the ring. That would mean I would need shims for the ring itself. Do they (any aftermarket parts supplier) make shims for the ring gears? Is that wise to do something like that? I am looking in the neighborhood of 10mm on the ring shim...that is half the length of the bolt (about).

[Mike C]

Nobody makes a ring gear spacer for the Nissan diff. There is no need to since the 10mm shim (or combinations of thicker shims) with the thin shims can be used to shift the carrier right and left.

 

As far as ring gear stampings, a 4.10 gear should be something like 41:10 (41 ring gear teeth, 10 pinion) the ring gear numbers will shift up or down a few and so will the pinion to change gear ratio. 39:11=3.54 37:11=3.36. All will be shimmed differently to get the ring gear to mesh correctly with the pinion gear.

 

Your halft shaft issue I don't know nothin' about. Ask around for someone else who has done the 4.1 swap into a Z. Once again, it may be best to swap the guts of the two cases or possible just switch side gears l to r in the SX case.

[brokebolt]

Mike, DAW,

 

Thanks for all your help and info.

 

The information I have on the ring stamp does fallow the 39:11=3.54, etc. except the 37:90=4.11, I read that you divide the first number by the second you get the ratio.

 

39/11=3.5454...this is true until 37/90=0.411...almost true.

 

Unsure what Datsun was thinking breaking form like that.

 

The real issue is the CV's, and unfortunity I don't know anyone else that is a Z'er, let alone a car nut, well exept for my machinist who is a Chevy guy.

 

I wounder if the CV's from a SXT would drop in with the R-200? I know that the bolt pattern is the same but are the companion flanges splined the same? The SXT CV's look a bit longer but the companion flanges are definetly shorter, or so it would appear. Looks like for me a weekend full of...

well full of something

[brokebolt]

Hey all,

 

Just looked and the stamp is 37:9 on both ring and pinion shaft NOT 37:90 which means that the math is correct. The decimal moves right and 37/9=4.11...now it's true. The ring tooth count is 37 and the pinion tooth count is 9! This weekend is looking up!

 

Not that you would care much but I always add place holders and so I did in my notes to the

 

"ring and pinion stamp 37:90 = 4.11... rear end differential"

 

It's nice to find your own errors before someone else does.

[Mike C]

Since both of your diffs are open, I would seriously look into just swapping the side gears left and right. This will change the circlip groove location to match your half-shafts if I understood the above correctly.

 

It is not too difficult if you take your time. Drive out the roll pin holding the spider shaft. Make some sort of support that you can hold the diff. I use an old axle vertical in the vise, then slide the case on it. Remove the spider pin. Now rotate the case slowly, and with the one side fixed, the spiders should rotate out. They will have a thrust washer behind them, and keep the washer and gear together, same with top to bottom. Once the spiders are out, you should be able to remove the side gears. Swap them L to R (up and down in the vise), then put the side gears and thrust washers 180 degrees to each other and rotate back in the case. Insert spider shaft and re-pin. The Nissan service manual tells you which way to drive the pin out and I believe they use some sort of glue on it as well.

[brokebolt]

Thanks for spending time on this subject and dealing with my problem. This discussion is getting real close to the one on VLSD "rear end ID". Also thanks for pointing out that the 39:11 stamp is ring tooth count and pinion tooth count, I wounder how long it would have taken me to realize that, Duh!!!

 

I see what your saying about the spider gears and clips, I was hoping this too would be true. The distance from the clip ring groove and the end of the shaft is the same left to right on the ZXT and the SXT. The difference is in the 'groove' area inside the carrier (I have no idea what it is really called). This part of the shaft exists with small spiral grooves cut in it. If the CV is installed in it's original fashion, looking from left to right it is cut Anti-clockwise and both are cut exactly the same, length of groove and number of grooves.

 

Here is the difference, one CV has a length of 10mm between the grooved area and the next section where the other does not have this gap. There are three diameters on the input and all three have special functions. the spline area, the groove area, and the seal area. The splines run up the shaft to an area wider than the splines. There the grooves are cut (both are the same up to this point). Here one has the 10mm 'dead' area where the grooves stop, but still have the same diameter. The other has grooves cut all the way to the next larger diameter of shaft. The shaft continues on, here you enter the area for the outer case seal. At this point you exit the case and enter the first CV, than more shaft, the second CV and finally the flange area where it is bolted to the hub companion flange.

 

I don't see that the spider gears are any different left to right nor does it look like they are shimed any differently, but they do appear to have a space. The 10mm on the shaft would need to be on the same side as the carrier side that has the 10mm spacer (shim) with the small 2.1mm shim.

 

I did talk to a guy at work about this issue (he races sprint cars) and he said (very long story short ) that you do "ususally" shim only the carrier to remove ring and pinion backlash, "but" in your case, have a shim for the ring made. I agree that this would be the 'easiest' solution to this problem, with some risks associated.

 

This certainly has been a project from the word GO!!!

 

Mike thanks again for your insite into this issue.

[Ezzie]

Sorry to revive such an old thread .. but I am doing this mod and having some difficulty. I am trying to set up a new 12mm. 4:11 R&P set in a Z31 Turbo clutch type LSD. The pinion depth has to be raised quite a bit to strike the ring gear near the middle of the contact patch. I am still trying to get it high enough and had to order some more spacers from Nissan. Anybody ever done this setup and have any idea what thickness was required?? Looks like I need to be at the thickest end of the range of available shims (3.63mm.) plus a bit.

 

Also, the carrier shims look like they will need to be swapped from side to side to get the backlash down to spec. as well. There is a 2.4mm thin shim on the ring gear side of the carrier and a 2.2 mm. and 8mm thick spacer on the pinion side of the carrier. If I take the thick 8 mm. spacer and put it over on the ring gear side to shift the ring gear closer to the pinion - how will this affect the CV shafts?? Will they no longer snap in properly?

 

What if I swapped the fixed CV joints from side to side??