yo2001 Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 It's in .60 A/R T04B. I wanted a turbo that was going to fit without a spacer. Stage III in .63 A/R Nissan turbine housing. I do have a bigger wastegate outlet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 Saying the 57 is total crap' date=' is unjustified. The 57 takes a smidge longer to spool than the 50 due to increased moment of inertia because of the larger diameter. [b']A 60 will take just a touch longer[/b]. If you had gone through calculating the load points for the L28 you will find that the 57 trim is more suited for L28 larger dispalcement motor. Using a 4400rpm point, the airflow lands directly in the center of the flow island on the compressor map at 15psi. The limitation is about 19psi before effeciency takes a nose dive. There is not a huge diffence between a 50 and a 57mm or 60mm for that matter. But the 57mm is a wonderful comprimise for a street car. While the size of compressor wheel does have some effect on spoolup, it is mainly the configuration of the turbine that determines spoolup time The manufacturer went too big with the turbine size, giving you poor spoolup. Simply swap for a stage III, you .63 a/r is good. BTW I have a T04e/T3 with a 57mm wheel with stage III turbine .63 a/r and have no complaints about lag. I think you meant to say there was to much of a mismatch between compressor wheel size to turbine wheel size. I have a 60 trim with a stage V and it spools up by 3000-3200 rpms, and is a nice turbo. I am glad you did the math on this one Clint, I was going to but got busy here at work. Hard to argue with black and white isn't it? HEHE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clint78z Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 The tuning may be off on his car as well, I guess my point was that when the compressor wheel only changes a small amount in diameter it has less of an effect on spoolup. The 57 is probably better off staying in the the stage III turbine because it doesn't have the flow capability of the 60 when you get 20+psi. You chose to trade a little spoolup time in order to keep the turbine from being a restriction at the top end. These turbos all have good linear response not as fast as a T3, but not as much lag as a full T04. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toki Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 So how do the stages of the wheel affect it all? And I am seeing 2 different A/R ratios listed in specs for turbos, one for the turbine and one for the compressor, which one is generally being referred to, the Turbine, correct? A Garrett T3/T04E: COMPRESSOR SPECS: .60 A/R HOUSING 50 TRIM WHEEL TURBINE SPECS: .63 A/R HOUSING STAGE 3 WHEEL standard with 270 degree thrust bearing oil lubricated centersection. Does that sound about right for what I described before? (From cheapturbos.com) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1SickZ Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 the A/R on the hot side housing and the exducer wheel controll spool but a huge compressor wheel can effect it as well.. stick with the .63 housing till you get over 500whp and stick with the stage 3 hihg flow wheel till abt 400-450 then only go to stage 4 stage 5 will be too big till you make serious power. so a 60-1 with a .63 and a stage 3 wheel will spool almost like stock couple hundred rpm later. stage 4 wheel will be abt 400-500 rpm later than the 3 and stage 5 will be another 400-500 longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo2001 Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 360 deg thrust bearing rather than 270 deg. Must if you want to keep the oil in the motor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toki Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Is it possible and more importantly inexpensive to get the thrust bearing replaced/modified to 360 degrees from 270? Or would it be better just to buy a turbo that is already set up properly? I just though the price for that ($550) was pretty low so it would be worth picking up and changing that thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1SickZ Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 COMPRESSOR SPECS: .60 A/R HOUSING 60 TRIM WHEEL TURBINE SPECS: .63 A/R HOUSING STAGE 3 WHEEL standard with 270 degree thrust bearing oil lubricated centersection. call for internal wastegate pricing option. TA34-4Normal price: $799.00OUR price: $549.00 ADD 75 dollars for 360 degree bearing. its worth it. Why are you going with a 50 trim ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toki Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Well even after reading what someone posted about the 50,57,and 60 trims not having much of a difference in spool times, I still havn't researched this and wasn't going to just take it to heart...what would be the advantages of a 60 trim over a 50? The disadvantages? How much longer will it take to spool? 100rpm? 300rpm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Man you guys are clueless. The compressor wheel has a minimal effect, if any on the spool up time of the turbo. The mass of the rotating assembly is in the turbine wheel and shaft, the compressor wheel is cast aluminum. (Read Maximum Boost it says the same thing) You have to follow some basic rules, though or you will have problems. There should not be much more then 15 percent difference between the size of the compressor wheel relative to the turbine wheel. Beyond that it is harder for a small turbine to drive a large compressor. And as for a stage V, I have one, and it spools just fine, and is a 10 blade model. It spools at about 200 rpms higher then a stage III or T3 Hi flow. In fact I don't really notice much difference at all as far as spooling goes, and it flows much better on the hight end. A 60 trim is worth about 25 hp over a 50 trim, and a 57 probably falls somewhere in between. You won't see any difference in spool up time between any of the three wheels. Plot some points on each compressor map and make the best choice based upon your combination. Again see Maximum Boost for the proper formula's. Please don't take off the cuff advice on a turbo, or buy a cheap one, you will regret it later on. Find some people who have the faster Z cars on the board, and find out what they are running and recommend, and go from there. Sorry for the rant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1SickZ Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Lockjaw.. ever had any experience with turbo specialties in bama ? i did state above.: the A/R on the hot side housing and the exducer wheel control spool but a "huge" compressor wheel can effect it as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clint78z Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Be nice some ppl haven't read as much on the subject, you don't need to if you have a good turbo builder. Here are some basics of turbo I will give the T3/T04E-57mm stage III .63 a/r. This is a hybrid turbo with two different families mixed. The turbo is divided into two sides 1) compressor a)T04E is the family it has a certain set of wheels and housings b)The bigger the wheel the longer the spoolup (however small changes have small effects) c)The main selection of this side is to match it to your motor combination. [/b]The wheels heat the air differently, you must pick the one that heats the air the least for your intended use 2) Turbine a)The stage III is a certain wheel size with a certain number of blades, the smaller this wheel the faster it spools up in general. A/R stands for area to radius ratio (don't worry if you don't understand). Think of it as a straw blowing at a pin wheel, the smaller the A/R the smaller the straw. The small straw get speed up quickly, but you have to blow real hard to get the wheel really spinning and becomes a restriction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Lockjaw.. ever had any experience with turbo specialties in bama ? i did state above.: the A/R on the hot side housing and the exducer wheel control spool but a "huge" compressor wheel can effect it as well No I don't have any personal experience with them, but they are in the same town as I am and I don't use them. You can draw your own conclusions. Or you can PM me and I will be more forthcoming. I like Forced Performance in Texas, or you can also use Alex Costa his handle is Zcarsmakemyheadhurt. He rebuilt a turbo for me and did a fine job. He has a turbo Z car so he can answer questions about what works well based on experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toki Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Thanks for the info lockjaw and clint78z, I really need to go pick up a copy of maximum boost so I can stop bother people on message boards so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Its not bothering, its just that "some" people know enough to be dangerous, and should study the material a little more. That book is a good resource manual, but I think Corky is a touch conservative in his approach, but hey, maybe he doesn't blow his stuff up. I think you will be happy with either of the wheels you were talking about, however, I would also remind you to consider the potential you may want to do more then you initially thought, and get a turbo that leaves you some growing room. As I said, I like my combo right now, but I have different engine management and that makes a difference too. Either way, don't get stuck buying something that you will just have to upgrade with your next modification. Good luck, and let us know what you decide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 From all of these, what it means is that if I get a T4E with .63/.60 60 trim and stage 1 turbine wheel, I'll be making problems ? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1SickZ Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 yea go with a stage 3 wheel or a high flow stage 3 wheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spork Posted May 13, 2003 Author Share Posted May 13, 2003 well, I'll know for sure this friday when I go to the track...but I just pulled and replaced a bum O2 sensor. It varied in the stoich and lean ranges on my gauge but wasn't getting more than a bar or so to the rich side. I went on a hunch and replaced it...The new O2 is showing me 4-5 bars rich. Pulled out the volt meter and check the voltage. .96 volts @WOT WEll, I backed off the fuel a bit and went for a ride. hit it hard in third gear and fishtaled a bit. Needless to say, The car is running much better and I've lost the sluggishness I had before and my boost seems to hit quicker and harder now. On a similar note...I go through a lot of O2 sensors (around 6 in the last 2 years)...anyone else have this problem...I've been running the bosch ones from autozone. Is there a better alternative? James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo2001 Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 you must had a rich statter. I'm glad that you got it solved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest De Schmaydee Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 .....do you have an intercooler on that thing....the piping size and graduations can really dog a turbo up.....or a leak..... ......i have a T3/T04b thats been machined out for a 57trim and a stageIII on the other side.....it spools pretty quick (i have an external wastegate) but that sucker throws you back in the seat like a V8 when it kicks in.......s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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