V8 vs Inline four???

[Guest vegeta]

My 1975 280z has a single overhead cam and electronic fuel injection on it's stock straight six. And it was considered the "affordable sports car" of its time. How many U.S. cars had EFI and SOHC in 1975?

The American Domestic companies will eventually be back on top, but they need to hurry up and get with the times to do so.

[cameraobsess]

another thing that domestic car makers were dealing with in the 80's is that their factorys were inferior to the japanese factorys. ever since the end of world war two we had inferior factorys. during wwII we bombed them to bits and we felt so bad that we built them brand new top of the line factorys a little bit after the end of the war. our factories had a hard time compeating with these newer factories and in the 80s the playing feilds were just starting to even out again. but by the time the factories were even the japanese had moved so far ahead in tec its all a game of catch up for us now. we will get there someday.

 

yea dont get me wrong about bush well i dont like him or a lot of what he dose, he is our president and i will suport him as such. a lot of people dont like clinton but when you ask them why most people dont have a reason. the only thing i didnt like about clinton was that he didnt know how to control the military. but then again Bush isnt any better at that. I personaly think that if you compair iraq to Kosovo you will see that we were stupid in both but clinton knew he didnt know what he was doing so he went the safer rout and avoided using ground troops as much as posible. Bush on the other hand has no clue and so when someone gives him a plan he takes it. anyways i got way off topic. sorry about that

[Guest vegeta]

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[johnc]

Guys, stick to the thread topic.

[Guest vegeta]

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[Dan Baldwin]

FWIW, those Honda horses are a lot smaller than the Camaro's horses. 2750 lb. S2000 does ~100mph in the 1/4, while a 3400 lb. LS1 Z28 does ~106 (friend o' mine does 107s in the 13.4s, all stock on all-season tires, actually). Assuming a 175 lb. driver, I calculate ~332 net hp for the Z28, and 228 net hp for the S2000. GM was WAY conservative in rating the F-body's LS1 power output.

 

As for high tech vs. low tech, it's a moot point when you get to the track (1/4 mile, roadrace or other). I am not prejudiced at all, I just want as much power as I can get, and as little weight as possible. Nothing wrong with either method. Let it be known, however, that in the power to engine weight, "old-tech" pushrod V8s can do very well indeed. More cams and valves isn't necessarily better than more displacement. I'd rather have the Saleen S7's (2750 lb. supercar) 7-liter NA motor than the Ford GT's (3400 lb. supercar) overwrought supercharged DOHC V8 in my 240z. The OHC 6 will have to do for now, though...

[Guest Nic-Rebel450CA]

This thread isnt dead yet?

 

There isnt any make of engine that lasts longer or is more reliable, it's how you take care of it. I can run a V8 engine into the ground just as fast as a 2L DOHC engine. I can also make them both last as long if I take care of them right. No manufacturer has better engineers than the other. If every Joe Schmo on this board knows what a DOHC engine looks like and how the chain or belt turns the cams then I am quite certain that every engine manufacturer has an engineer that at least knows the same... think about it.

 

The whole question comes back to potential HP. Asking why the S2000 makes 250 HP and the Camaro makes 300 HP would be like me asking why the Chevy 350 in my truck only makes about 300 HP and the 350's in Nascar are making like 900 HP. IT'S THE WAY THEY ARE BUILT! The S2000 is damn near pegged at the highest N/A HP you can get from it, while the Camaro is no where near it's peak output. If you build any engine the same as another, it will make comparable HP/cubic inch, period. There is no debate, that is fact.

[Guest vegeta]

the point was that under equal circumstances the Japanese engines last longer. go look in any copy of Consumer Reports.

[cameraobsess]

that might be true but if you compair how people treat the engines the domestics as i have seen have been treated far worse by the drivers. parts of our society tend to drive their cars into the ground and these tend to be the same parts that buy the big american trucks. all the farm trucks are prime examples. i have grown up on a farm and almost anyone i have ever met around here that works on a farm buys the american made trucks because they know they can drive them harder for longer. even though we use our vehicles to the max that we can they still hold up well, parts brake and we fix them and drive them untill they just wont drive anymore. their are more things you have to consider as well, the cost to fix the engines when they brake. when you look at performance engines the american engines even the four bangers have a wider power band and when the power is close to the same but you cover more area on a graph you will win the race.

[Guest vegeta]

the only american engine that revs much more than 6000 is the ford focus svt 4 banger.

 

to say the U.S. cars have a wider power band is not really accurate, since they only maintain power between 3500-5500 rpm, generally, when most Hi-Po imports make power between 4500-8000 rpm.

[Guest vegeta]

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[cameraobsess]

what i ment by wider power band is that even though they dont rev as high the power is more consistant, its more of an arch, with the japanese engines its more like a line. an arch is going to cover more area than a line. i dont know if that explination makes as much sense as it did in my head ill try and think of a better way to say it.

[Guest vegeta]

yeah, i think i know what you mean.

 

The dyno chart is more like a steep upward line on most imports, rather than a flattened arc that has more mid and low end on it in the domestics.

 

But what you have to remember is that if you were to take the dyno chart from the average hopped up import (like a honda/acura, for example) and cut it off at around 6000 rpm, where most domestics redline, it would still be making pretty much the same power from idle to 6000 as your average domestic engine (I'm talking about a domestic 4 banger or a small 6 here, man, not a V8 ) only the import keeps going after 6000 and continues on to make higher numbers (typically). Plus you factor in the power advantage of higher gearing due to a higher redline.

The only drawback is you have to wind the engine out real high to take advantage of the power. Most people prefer to have power right off idle, on demand, as in a V8.

 

Like I said before, i'm not bashing V8 iron. I'm probably going to put one in my Z. It just seems like a lot of the people who are into traditional domestic hot rodding aren't really aware of the performance you can get from high tech, high revving engines. Plus, I like to cause a ruckus now and then

[Guest Nic-Rebel450CA]

the only american engine that revs much more than 6000 is the ford focus svt 4 banger.

 

Wait until my Chevy 302 is done

[2many280s]

Old thread, I know. But the "Old Tech Vs New Tech" arguments reminded me of an article in Turbo Magazine about an almost 4000hp drag Focus.... Guess what they did with the actual focus motor? In the dumpster =) They made that 4khp with a 2300 4cyl from a Pinto because it was a stronger motor to start with.

 

Thats also with MASSIVE forced induction =) So it doesn't apply much to the original question though.

[Phantom]

A little "historical" perspective here. Chrysler had 4-wheel disc brakes on their cars in the early 50's. They discontinued them because they cost more than drums and no one else went to them - economics. Nash built a small commuter car in the 50's. Similar in size to the Japanese cars of the 60's & 70's. Hardly anyone bought it so it was discontinued. Did you see the first Honda that came out in the early 70's? It was 4 wheels and a motorcycle engine. They've learned fast but don't talk to me about Japanese engineering and that car in the same sentence.

The 340 ci V-8 Mopar had in the late 60's & 70's redlined from the factory at 6,500 RPM. The first 302 ci Z-28 was in that neighborhood. The 426 ci Hemi redlined as high as 8,000 - depending on which one you ordered. The reason Japanese motors rev so high is that they are small and have to rev to make the HP. HP is directly proportional to the amount of air an engine pumps. Conversely, lower revving engines tend to last longer - hence the larger displacement American engines. That also made them quieter and, when equivalently designed, longer lasting.

I'm not knocking Japanese engineering - it's great - but don't sell the American engineering short. It is just restricted by economics and the bean counters that are in charge of most auto companies.

I think the L28, a German design, is a great engine - but I pulled it and installed an LS1. Why - better technology and a whole lot more HP with greater reliability and easily obtainable parts.

[Guest steveo]

The saturn ion holds a land speed record, i wouldn't bash american engineering. I wouldn't drive an ion either though

arguing over who has better engineers is stupid, yet very enternaining and educational

[Guest vegeta]

Phantom,

Give me a break. There's nothing high tech about an LS1. It's the same pushrod engine they've been making for years, only with nice EFI. Don't get me wrong, its a good engine, but its not high tech. And parts for an LS1 are MUCH more expensive than any other SBC, and no cheaper than any parts for the L-series engines. As for an engine lasting longer because it turns less rpms, you're partially correct. More important is the maximum PISTON SPEED. Even if an engine turns no more than 6000 rpm, if the stroke is 4" it has the same piston speed as an engine with a 3" stroke turning 8000 rpm. Of course if the valve train is a pushrod design, it will be under WAY more load at 8000 rpm than an OHC design. Pushrod engines don't safely rev that high. And you said that an american engine, when equivelantly designed, will last as long as other makes. But thats the point. They ARENT equivelantly designed. Most stock domestic engines have cast internals that are externally balanced, controlled by unreliable electronics, and have a neanderthal valvetrain. Contrast that with the average euro or jap engine and its a drastic difference: mostly forged, internally balanced rotating assemblies, with durable electronics, and ohc, sometimes VVTI, etc. valvetrains. Even in '75 the Z had forged steel crank, forged steel rods, OHC, EFI, and internally balanced. The average Nissan, Toyota, Mazda, BMW, etc today have these features. And the japanese cars with all of these high tech impliments sell for the same as the domestic equivelant. And last longer. Seriously, have you seen any reliability ratings lately?

But like I said, although they still dominate the SUV segment, Detroit has noticed the car market in America slipping to foreign companies, and they are responding very well with some great products on the way. Ford's Mustang has been pretty good when it comes to updating: even though the base model still has a live axle (as opposed to an IRS) the base v8 engine is a nice, aluminum, SOHC engine, and the Cobra has had a DOHC engine and IRS for a while now (might have something to do with the death of the Camaro). GMC has a very nice L6, DOHC, VVTI engine in the small SUVs that they sell, too. And the Cadillac Northstar engine is impressive with all of its features (dohc, vvti, etc). Chevy is about to release the Cobalt, which is basically a honda civic clone, but thats a hell of a lot better than the old cavaliers that it replaces. And Dodge has the SRT4, which has a badass turbocharged, dohc 4 banger, and even though it only costs around $20k, it is as fast as the last SS Camaro (which cost around $30k). The list goes on....SVT Focus, Saturn Ion Redline, Pontiac Solstice, etc. So the domestics have obviously noticed what's really going on and have responded. But it took a decade and a half of superior imports to provoke them.

[Guest vegeta]

Jeez, man, sorry for going on and on, but...

 

Those old high revving pushrod engines (Z28 camaro 302ci, etc) were few and far between, and were actually sold as limited production "weekend warrior" type street-legal-racers that did not last very long at all. There's a reason: the valvetrain is under such high stresses from the uneven motions and heavy weight of all the components (16 lifters, 16 pushrods, 16 rockers) that they were prone to failure (throwing a pushrod, unseating a rocker, etc).

 

P.S.

What do you mean the L-series is a german design? Isn't it a Nissan engine, sharing the same architecture with the L-series 4 cylinders in the datsun 510, etc? Just curious.

Later

[Phantom]