Guest bastaad525 Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Reading a lot about this lately and it seems like a really cool idea. When done right, it seems this method could even be more effective than an intercooler, and pairing the two together... yikes. I'm wondering, for anyone who's used a system like this, how much headroom does it give you for safely increasing boost? Are there other advantages? Inherent disadvantages? Has anyone ever had a problem with one that screwed up their engine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shuyun Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 I am using a water injection draw throug turbo setup on my car it is not in the car yet and should be in by christmas. check the setup i have picts in my galery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHANE Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 I had the Spearco system on my car and saw NO gain from it. All i got was rust!! Rust in the i/c piping (the little bit that was exposed) was very bad. It did not allow for more boost or timing. i do hear that the more expesive computer controlled kits are very nice. The cheaper kits 300.00 and under use a washer fluid pump and rely on boost to pressure the tank. the nicer kits run an actuall high pressure pump for a nice mist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 that's odd I would think it would have had some benefit.... maybe the spearco unit isn't that great? I would think water injection in general should work well... in theory it sounds like it should and it has been around as something guys have been doing for a long time. Mods like that dont survive too long if it's not doing something... I agree that I dont like the spearco 'pressurized tank' setup, better to run a high pressure pump. You can do your own setup with 100psi pump for around the same cost as the spearco. I dont like idea of the rust though... if I were to do this setup I was going to place the injector right in front of the TB, I gotta wonder if it would cause rust on internal parts of the TB or other places in the intake... definately not worth it. Shane - how did you test it as far as seeing if it would allow more boost or timing? I'm really surprised if it did not at least allow you to run a couple more psi w/o pinging.... Moreso than the ability to turn up the boost, I am really interested in one of these for their purported 'side effect' of keeping the inside of the engine clean Imagine pulling the head off the block and seeing like NO carbon buildup on anything after a long period of running the engine... that would rock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moridin Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Here are some links to a Supra owner that had a really good experience with alchy injection: http://forum.aempower.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=552&highlight=methanol http://forum.aempower.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=1407&highlight=methanol This one is friggin' awesome: http://forum.aempower.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=1420&highlight=methanol http://forum.aempower.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=1449&highlight=methanol http://forum.aempower.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=1515&highlight=methanol http://forum.aempower.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=1754&highlight=methanol http://forum.aempower.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=715&highlight=methanol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moridin Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 I also read an article on a new drag car with a turbo NSX V6 in the back. I'm pretty sure their ideas came from "AnArkey" (the guy that wrote all those posts which I linked above). Basically, they ran a second set of injectors right behind the stock placed ones. They were running some insane amount of boost with no intercooler. The methanol injectors fired after the gasoline ones to cool the intake and thus the intake charge. I guess this had some serious impact, enough which allows them to run insane amounts of boost without the use of an intercooler (I hope I'm not wrong about the intercooler bit. I'll have to dig up the Super Street issue it was in). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 that supra guy is using Methanol though, which I want to stay away from (expensive... not sure where to get it... dangerous stuff). I'm thinking water or denatured alchohol, or a mix of both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 where DO you get methanol from? or denatured alchohol even? what is the disadvantage of denatured alchohol? just not as effective? How much do they cost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moridin Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 I'm not quite sure. I know you need to buy a lube of some sort so the methanol won't eat through the pump. Methanol should not be that expensive. Maybe $5 a gallon or so. Sounds like a lot, but you don't need much to cool the intake charge and supplement your fuel system. Browse some more of that AEM board. There is a ton more stuff by Anarky and the details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moridin Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Oh...the methanol, as I understand it, is not as bad as some say. Just treat it very carefully and you'll be fine. The stuff you really want to stay away from is toluene. That stuff can be very bad, but it does make excellent octane booster from what I've heard. Ethanol is another alternative. Here's a link explaining a little development in alternative fuels (including methanol and ethanol) http://greennature.com/article243.html This quote is pulled from the link http://www.energy.ca.gov/glossary/glossary-e.html and it says this about alcohol: "ETHANOL (also know as Ethyl Alcohol or Grain Alcohol, CH3CH2OH) -- a liquid that is produced chemically from ethylene or biologically from the fermentation of various sugars from carbohydrates found in agricultural crops and cellulosic residues from crops or wood. Used in the United States as a gasoline octane enhancer and oxygenate, it increases octane 2.5 to 3.0 numbers at 10 percent concentration. Ethanol can also be used in higher concentration (E85) in vehicles optimized for its use." http://hypertextbook.com/physics/matter/energy-chemical/ says that ethanol has a chemical energy density of 29.7MJ per Kg and methanol has 22.7ML per KG. I'd browse those links I posted above from the AEM site, as they may contain a little more information about the chemical makeup of different alcohols and why methanol was the fuel of choice. My biggest guess is its cooling properties outweigh the better chemical energy density of ethanol (maybe price too?) The more I find out, the more I'll let you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpatrol Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 one of the reasons its only used on specialty cars and not daily drivers is methanol partialy converts to an acidic state with acid as a byproduct..you will rust evrything up using methanol..it is efficient but not for an everyday car..alcohol is an alternative to methanol which is basically the same...you would need 100% tough to find and not too cheap.methanol is an excellent octane booster though..water injection used to resist pinging but rust also comes into play..so stay intercooled simpler and hassle freee...phillip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moridin Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 If you keep the methanol close to the throttle body (after the intercooler) and in a seperate plastic system with some good lube, you should not have a problem. It does become acidic, but as long as its kept moving through the intake tract and never let it sit, you should not have a problem. Read those links on the AEM site. That guy explains a ton and lets you know the pros, cons, and what has happened to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aaron Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Water injection was discussed at length here about 1.5 to 2 years ago. BLKMGK (I think) had a lot of good information at that time. I looked for the topic, but have not found it yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 I read every single link you posted Moridin... thanks for those by the way, some very good, interesting stuff. No surprise that BLKMGK had some say about this stuff over here, he's been very involved with the topic over on the AEM boards. The lube Moridin is referring to is called Uplon, and according to Anarky the stuff works fantastic for keeping the more destructive properties of methanol at bay. From what Anarchy said you only have to add a few oz. to each gallon of methanol and it does the trick, he's had no problems with the stuff. The Uplon is expensive at like $10 a quart but again, you dont need to use much. I'm still leaning more towards ethanol or denatured alchohol, which are the same thing I guess? What about Isopropyl (regular rubbing alchohol)? Or some sort of 50/50 mix. Funny you mentioned Toulene, I've already done a LOT of research into that stuff... an awesome, cheap octane booster, but toxic and not too pleasant to deal with, which has kept me from using it regularly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ON3GO Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 what about propan kits? VR4 and stealth twin turbno guys use these type of kits and yeild great power from it.. its like race gas when using it... anybody? mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moridin Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 Propane has a greater chemical energy density then any of the above alcohols mentioned. Problem is, I believe you need a heater to make it into a gas, because I don't believe it is combustible in liquid form. Propane works awesome on diesels from what I've read (and seen on Trucks! TV). I'm not sure about this, but from what I remember, propane may not have the extensive cooling properties of methanol. I guess I better go bother some of my chem teachers to find out. The rubbing alcohol idea is a good, but I remember hearing a reason(s) not to use it. It was either something about being too expensive, or it didn't work as well as the methanol (cooling or chemical energy). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigWhyteDude Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 why do ppl use propain of deisel engines nd N2O or is it NO2?? on gas burners?? the happy gas is basicly a way to cram as much O2 into an engine as you can, same thing as boost but you do it chemicaly right? or am i just thinking about this in the wronge way??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperZ Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 why do ppl use propain of deisel engines nd N2O or is it NO2?? on gas burners?? the happy gas is basicly a way to cram as much O2 into an engine as you can, same thing as boost but you do it chemicaly right? or am i just thinking about this in the wronge way??? Simply put, diesel injection pumps are difficult to modify for large power outputs. What they already have is a surplus of air (diesels inherently burn lean), so adding a high octane fuel results in massive power increases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moridin Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 They actually use both propane and nitrous in diesel engines. That episode of Trucks! that I was refering to had Stacey doing both on a big diesel Dodge. I wonder how feasible it would be to inject liquid oxygen The reason for using methanol or ethanol is to cool the intake charge (keeping it cool enough not to detonate at high boost i.e. high temp) more than anything. It just so happens that methanol and ethanol both add chemical energy into the combustion chamber. If you just want to add some octane points than water is fine. You could use nitrous with a turbo (helps to get motor going until it hits boost), but you don't need to lean it out any further as you already have the added air from forced induction. Like I said above, the methanol/ethanol/water are most importantly used to cool the intake charge allowing you to run more boost (instead of paying to keep that nitrous bottle filled - which I think is more expensive than any of the alcohols, and most definitely water). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigWhyteDude Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 oh ok i see what you mean now. thanks for the clarifacation guys. Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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