silicone boy Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 I'll put my turbos in the typical spot, right next to the head. With my flipped over, upside down modified LT1 headers, my turbo housings are about as close as you can get to the heads-real efficient. However, I am disturbed by all those pictures of glowing red hot turbo housings and downpipes. I'm worried about my hood and also the oil drain tubes. I get visions of them melting and spilling oil all over the road (and melting my engine) if I don't keep the oil drains away from the intense heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug71zt Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 If you can fit them, a pair of turbine heat shields will protect the paint on the hood. You can get Firesleeve to protect the oil supply and return lines, racer supply places should have it. If not, Aircraft Spruce and Specialty will have it. It is the orange silicone sleeveing with braided insulation inside. It slips over the lines to protect them from radiated heat. http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/aero6.htm Good luck with your project, I'm sure it will be a barnstormer when it's done. I'm working on a 457 CI Dodge with a pair of 60-1 T04, for a mid-60's Valient. Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Glowing red turbos come from two things: A. Crappy Tuning. (running lean) This is solved by good tuning. B. Beating on it for an extended period of time. (the wreaks havoc on the whole car, and your brakes will match the turbos) This isn't a problem unless you will be racing on a road course for several minutes or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silicone boy Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Good luck with your project, I'm sure it will be a barnstormer when it's done. I'm working on a 457 CI Dodge with a pair of 60-1 T04, for a mid-60's Valient. I'm speechless, Also, you mean the turbos don't really glow red like I see in a lot of photos? Makes me feel a lot better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug71zt Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Yes - It will be exciting. Goal for 12psi is 800-850 hp, similar TQ #'s with a redline of 6500. Boost threshold around 2.2K, full boost 2.7K. It's almost a mid-engine car now, the firewall has been moved back and it's tube-framed up front with a full cage. The car ran in the mid 11s when it was a dual-quad tunnel ram. Street driven, of course. It's my first 4-link ford 9-inch project, so a steep learning curve there. 3.08 rear gear for 170 mph traps at redline with a 27 inch tire. Only problem is it's shaped like a brick. It is a lot closer to the road than when it came from the factory. Time will tell. Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Off topic sort of. My turbo used to come home nice and red. I was running 13-14psi boost with 60psi fuel from an FMU, and stock timing and EFI. I advanced the timing from 22 to 27 and it barely glows anymore. This tells me that it's not only mixture that effects turbo temp. It's the efficiency of your burn. I figured it must have been running a bit rich and burning leftover fuel in the turbine. By advancing the timing, it burns more of the mixture in the cylinders where it should, thus keeping turbo temp down. Just an observation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromio Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 I am not a turbo guy. But from what I know, the exhaust side of a turbo is just like an extra part of the exhaust system. As others have already stated, a glowing turbo is just like any other glowing section of the exhaust system: A Bad Thingâ„¢. But yes, the turbo will be hot - hopefully just as hot as the exhaust manifold. To be clear though, the turbo is not creating heat. What it is supposed to do is convert some of that otherwise wasted heat into mechanical energy (which is then used to drive a blower forcing more air into the motor). For those of you who keep saying "Heat doesn't drive the turbo" you are just wrong. Is there some electric fan or other such device pushing air thru the motor? Is it the action of the piston in the bore pushing the air? No! Cold air gets sucked into the motor and mixed with fuel which is ignited - BOOM! Big hot fire and expansion of gases (again, PV=nRT). This is used - partially used - to drive a piston and turn a crank. The rest of that left over hot gas is just chucked out where it expands down the exhaust tubes and out. It is Heat energy that is driving that air. Turbos scavenge some of that heat and squeeze some more mechanical work out of it. Letting the heat dissipate thru a long section of exhaust tubing before hitting the turbo is just not a good idea. I will give credit for the marketing and PR wizardy of these STS guys. This system is hugely inferior to a belt driven SC (due to lag, install complexity, etc.) and costs more, yet they are apparently selling many and signing up lots of dealers. I'm sure they're making alot of dollars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug71zt Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Just for illustration of that, I have calculated that for the 457 Dodge, each compressor requires 49hp input to provide 12 psi to that engine. Quite a bit of energy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Z-rific Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 So this will cost you $4000. Add on custom piping, as there is no Z kit available. And some custom brackets, custom heat/shrapnel shield and creative placement. $4500 is realistic. Now add on the cost of your LS1 to begin with. Where are we at...$7000? To get 400HP? The pesimistic side of me thinks that their dyno #'s start originally with a road driven engine, and their "after" #'s are probably with the new turbo and a complete tunung. Maybe advance the timing a few degrees.... I don't know if this sytem works as advertised or not. I'm just smiling thinking what I could do with $7000 for an engine build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 The turbos on most cars do not glow, thats the truth. They only glow hot when run hot. Like someone said above, advancing timing will bring the temp down. If you put an exhaust temp gauge in the turbine inlet or in the manifold before the turbine, you can monitor this change when you advance your timing. You will see that a couple degrees of advance can drop exhaust temps by a hundred or even hundreds of degrees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 This must be the patent...... http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,745,568.WKU.&OS=PN/6,745,568&RS=PN/6,745,568 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ON3GO Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 well my friend just put this STS turbo kit on his car. the build up will be on TV too. on a show called "two brothers garage" or something like that. 1999 LS1 Camaro with 105K miles. STS turbo kit, running 7psi. threw a t04B 81a/r turbo meth injecton kit. Hypertech lid tial blow off valve made 450rwhp and 480lbs of torque. this is a automatic car too. i guess its not so bad, but i dunno.. not my way to turbo a car. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 The turbos on most cars do not glow' date=' thats the truth. They only glow hot when run hot. Like someone said above, advancing timing will bring the temp down. If you put an exhaust temp gauge in the turbine inlet or in the manifold before the turbine, you can monitor this change when you advance your timing. You will see that a couple degrees of advance can drop exhaust temps by a hundred or even hundreds of degrees.[/quote'] Okay I'm confused. More advance drops combustion/exhaust temps down? I thought that more advanced caused hotter combustion temps which is why it lead to pinging? If advancing timing drops exhaust temps but still causes detonation, what is the advantage of the cooler exhaust temps, if any? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 Advancing the timing allows more time for the fuel to burn in the cylinders. This uses up more of the fuel mixture thus dumping less "live mixture" into the exhaust. Less "live mixture" in the exhaust means lower EGT and Turbine Temps. Advancing too far will cause the ignition to start when the piston is too low in the compression stroke. This will create a much higher dynamic compression ratio and cause PING. I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 I should've continued to say that if you advance TOO far, it will get hotter while pinging. You can see this on the EGT gauge very easily.... advance to drop the temp into range, then leave it alone. If the temp starts rising again, back it off. Hopefully you're using a wideband while doing this and making sure the exhaust temp changes are not due to changes in air fuel ratio. Lock the A/F in place, adjust ignition timing. If the A/F changes, tweak it, then monitor the exhaust temp again for timing. You must keep both things in check at all times to prevent blowing it up. (the worst thing that can happen while tuning) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jasonv8z Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 I see the STS turbo as flawed, but an easy solution for more power. Yes it may be laggy; but lets face it: 5 psi of boost is 5 psi, which still means maybe 30% more power if done right. Maybe full boost hits at 3000 rpm instead of 2500, but it'll still make a lot more power than the same car without turbo. In any turbo system, the extra energy just goes out the wastegate after boost pressure is reached. The STS turbo system will just take a lot longer to open its wastegate, and less gas will flow out the wastegate. In fact, I'm thinking of putting some turbos in my Z where the cats would normally go. Not sure the feds would like it. For those that care, I'd like to throw some physics into this discussion: The STS turbo sytem will be more laggy due to its lower exhaust temperatures at the turbo. A basic law in thermodynamics is PV = nRT....but to simplify, it means that pressure and volume is proportional to temperature (the n is just a constant). If exhaust gas is cooled to 1/2 its temperature, it's volume (velocity in this case) will also be reduced by 1/2. Kinetic energy spins the turbo, and its formula is 1/2MV^2, meaning if the velocity is reduced by 1/2, kinetic energy is 1/4 what was once available. Simply put, loss of heat in the exhaust stream will mean much less energy to spin the turbo. It'll still get up to speed if done right though. The extra piping from the compressor is not an issue for lag, but it will not remove much heat. An extra 10' of 3" pipe has approximately 0.5 cubic feet of volume. A turbo pumping 500 CFM could pressurize that to 15 psi in under 1 msec. Feel free to correct me...its been a while since I took thermo. -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 Well... I will say... I'm running 90% simliar setup to Cygnusx1, and have yet to see my exhaust glow. Would be... interesting to see, to say the least, but now that it's "A Bad Thing" I guess I'd rather not! Okay so now we need someone with an EGT gauge and 'mild' setup with stock EFI to see what timing the L28ET likes for the lowest EGT's. Cygnus got cooler temps running 3 degrees of advance... and picked up a nice kick in driveability as well. I kicked mine up 2* from stock as well. I've already put it with Santa (in other words, my wife ) for a WB02 setup this year.... so no EGT for me Maybe for my birthday in May. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 10ft of 3" in pipe is only .5 cubic feet? That seems off to me for some reason.. I forgot my geometry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 10 feet of 3" pipe is .49 cubic feet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 Alrighty then... I'll have to take your word for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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