Guest freakozcars Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 Hi all...this is my first post on this board. I am looking at buying my first Z Car and I have some questions for those willing to help me out. From one guy, I am looking at a 1980 10th Anniversary 280Z that has a fresh paint job, and a stock 280z motor and 5 spd. tranny. Also included is a parts car. He wants around $1200 for both which I am willing to pay. Here is where it gets interesting. I found an advertisement for a 1977 Fairlady Z engine for $400. When I called about it, the kid told me that the car had triple webers on it, but it wasnt just the engine...it was a Japanese right hand drive parts car with engine and transmission, roll cage, it just wasnt running. What I would like to do is get rid of the fuel injection on the 1980 model and use those triple webers instead. Will any other modification be required beside using the intake manifold from the carbureted car and changing the fuel pump and adding the throttle linkage for the carburetors? Any advice or forewarnings before I start this venture will be greatly appreciated. I don't have much experience with Z cars. Thanks so much! John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest freakozcars Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 I just wanted to add that I have tried searching the boards and the only weber help I can come up with is tuning. I have also tried searching for "fuel injection" and "fuel injection swap." I just can't find anything. If someone can just recommend different search terms, I am more than willing to do my own research. Thanks again. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 Just curious, did the guy say why the RHD Z wasn't running? Swapping from EFI to tripples is a pretty straightforward swap... just as you said, just swap over the manifolds and carbs, and get yourself a stock 240 mechanical fuel pump, or a low pressure electric pump (set to provide around 3-5psi). Tuning is a whole other matter though, as most people will agree getting tripples tuned CAN be a pain in the keister, and can be pricey as you need to buy new parts (jets and such) until you get it right. That is to say, GETTING them tuned... once past that initial tuning they shouldn't be too hard to keep that way. Personally I wouldn't do this.... I wouldn't think there'd be a lot you could do or a lot more power to be had by going with tripples over going with a well set up and tuned EFI setup. With mods like a big bore throttle body, and ported intake, I'd imagine you could get flow as good as trips, but I could be wrong... However, you'd definately maintain better gas mileage, and all year round, any elevation driveability, with the EFI. They sure do LOOK cook under the hood though don't they? By the way, try doing a search under tripples or tripple webers, I guarantee there's info to be found here on this subject. Also check in the Fuel Delivery section of the forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 I think the most I've EVER heard claimed out of the stock injection is 210 hp. Not sure why that is. Maybe the AFM is too big a restriction, maybe its the length of the runners... I don't know. Maybe there are people making a lot more power than I think and I just haven't run across them yet. Most I've ever heard claimed out of triples is 305hp and I've heard very unsubstantiated rumors of old 70's CP cars with 50mm carbs that had more like 350. Regardless of whether you judge on 305 or 350, it's a pretty big difference compared to 210. I'd really be curious to have an accurate number on how much the old GT2 and CP cars were making power wise... never been able to dig that info up. Bottom line is like Bastaad says the triples are a pain to tune compared to the FI. The good news is once you do it they really don't need much maintenance (Mikunis at least). Just a balance every now and then. I'm pretty sure you will have to do some modification to the linkage, since it's going to be set up for RHD. Might want to consider converting to a cable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 heheh by 'well set up and tuned' EFI I'm really talking... not anywhere near stock EFI. I know I've heard of numbers higher than 210hp to the wheels... gah who was it, I'd swear it was on this board. But I think it was something over 250hp, with a hogged out intake manifold, big TB (think it was 65mm I'm not sure), bigger injectors, and I dont remember if the ECU was stock or what. Nor do I remember what extent the engine was built up to. What big advantage do the triples have that they could produce over 100hp more than an EFI setup? The 6 individual throttles is all I see... so how hard to get a TB large enough and the intake manifold flowing well enough to match the tripples flow potential? Fueling obviously isn't an issue... there's always bigger injectors. Heheh well I guess there is the one big obvious advantage... tripples would be cheaper and easier to install . Anyways you can't really compare tripples to stock EFI like that... since when were tripples stock on a Z? What would you need to do with an EFI setup to really match or surpass the power potential of the trips? It HAS to be possible. Maybe I'm reading/taking it wrong, but you kinda make it sound like tripples are THE key to make big power on an L engine. But it's not like just putting them on there will get you there. Quite the contrary... it's commonly held that if you don't have a motor built and setup to take advantage of them, tripples can actually HURT performance. And yeah I've also heard of the 300+ hp motors running trips, and I don't doubt that it has been done, but you gotta figure just how built those motors are. It's not like just throw on the trips and boom 300hp. Those motors, as far as I've seen, have always been big bore, stroked, MASSIVE amounts of headwork, super hot cam, and wouldn't be the kind of car you'd want to really drive on the street, with power bands very high in the RPM range. Though of course, to get that kind of power out of an EFI setup, you'd have to do pretty much the same thing (and make the same sacrifices i.e.: normal driveability and fuel mileage, though I'd still bet on the EFI setup having the better of both of those on a similiar hp setup) to get there. That's really the problem... I don't think I've ever seen someone with a really built motor like that running EFI. There MUST be someone who's done it.... I bet you could do it though and have hp similiar to what you can get running trips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 heheh by 'well set up and tuned' EFI I'm really talking... not anywhere near stock EFI. I know I've heard of numbers higher than 210hp to the wheels... gah who was it, I'd swear it was on this board. But I think it was something over 250hp, with a hogged out intake manifold, big TB (think it was 65mm I'm not sure), bigger injectors, and I dont remember if the ECU was stock or what. Nor do I remember what extent the engine was built up to. Well, like I said, maybe I just haven't seen it. What big advantage do the triples have that they could produce over 100hp more than an EFI setup? The 6 individual throttles is all I see... so how hard to get a TB large enough and the intake manifold flowing well enough to match the tripples flow potential? Fueling obviously isn't an issue... there's always bigger injectors. Heheh well I guess there is the one big obvious advantage... tripples would be cheaper and easier to install . Anyways you can't really compare tripples to stock EFI like that... since when were tripples stock on a Z? I really think the AFM is a big restriction. I think the intake manifold is not so good too. It isn't easy to port the plenum. The runners are kinda long to port from the inside. I think it's more than I could do. John Coffey is making over 280 whp and he isn't running triples, but he is running Motec injection and a custom manifold. I'm not trying to say that FI is inferior at all. Far from it. I think triple throttle bodies would have an advantage over carbs. I'm just saying that I think triples (at least the 44 and bigger) have an advantage over the stock injection. Also... and don't take this wrong... maybe I'm just reading it wrong, but it's kind of misleading, the way you put that. You kinda make it sound like tripples are the key, or maybe the ONLY way, to make big power on an L engine. And that just putting them on there will get you there. Yeah I've also heard of the 300+ hp motors running trips, and I don't doubt that it has been done, but you gotta figure just how built those motors were as well. It's not like just throw on the trips and boom 300hp. Those motors, as far as I've seen, have always been big bore, stroked, MASSIVE amounts of headwork, super hot cam, and wouldn't be the kind of car you'd want to really drive on the street, with power bands very high in the RPM range. Though of course, to get that kind of power out of an EFI setup, you'd have to do pretty much the same thing (and make the same sacrifices i.e.: normal driveability and fuel mileage, though I'd still bet on the EFI setup having the better of both of those on a similiar hp setup) to get there. That's really the problem... I don't think I've ever seen someone with a really built motor like that running EFI. There MUST be someone who's done it.... I bet you could do it though and have hp similiar to what you can get running trips. You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT that you cannot put a set of triples on and get 300hp, and I did not mean to say that at all. In fact I know I've talked about that being a pet peeve of mine. Like you go to a car show and there is a bone stock 240 motor with triple 40's and the guy is claiming 300 hp. Can't tell you how many times I've seen that, and it's never true. What I can tell you is what I've told you before, that when I switched from SU's to triples my wife was actually SCARED of the car. It had to be at least 40 hp gain. At LEAST. My head was ported, I had a decent sized cam, EI, header and 2.5 mandrel exhaust, and it just didn't do much at all with the SU's. I was convinced for a long time that triples just weren't worth it, and I had fought to not switch to them for years (had a roommate who kept hounding me, and he was right). I had heard all the Norm stories, and they convinced me. And I was wrong. Big time. Switched to triples and it was night and day. But again, my experience is judging SU's against triples, not stock FI against triples. I'm not set on this one. Show me the guy who makes big power out of the stock FI setup and I'll be open minded. I just haven't seen that guy yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 nah you are right on all counts. A stock EFI, with the AFM... well I wouldn't expect to see any big power made on that either. But I'm still betting you could pull more than 210hp out... the stock AFM can't be that limiting of a factor if you adress other areas. There are ways around the AFM as well, not always necessitating a 100% new or standalone EFI system. Like JWT's setup, swap the ECU, and put in a Cobra MAF. At least you can run that w/o rewiring the whole thing, installing custom crank gear/wheel/sensors or whatnot. But you're right... I can't say for sure I've seen it done either... just seems most people would just rather not bother. And I don't dispute that swapping tripples in place of stock SU's on a well set up or built motor should easily net you more power. I always feel the need to point out that Norms SU's aren't stock... and really I have no idea how I would go about comparing his SU's to trips or to even take a wild guess which could/would/should perform better. But he does go fast with his SU's Here's a question I've never seen asked or thought to ask... back to a stock or relatively stock motor, would tripples still provide an advantage over thestock EFI? I still strongly feel that tripples do NOT help on relatively stock motors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 My personal opinion is that you need a big cam for triples. Compression helps when you're running a big cam. Put those two together and that's pretty much what you need, although I did run my low compression/big cam/44s setup for a long time. It just didn't have much bottom end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 It just didn't have much bottom end. That's the complaint I hear the most about tripples, was what I experienced when I drove my friends Z with tripples, and why I usually recommend against them for street driven cars. But maybe they were all cases of not enough engine for the carbs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 Triples just don't transition very well from cruise to WOT IME. I've had two "expert" tuners tell me that I couldn't possibly get mine tuned any better than I had it, and I managed to get it better yet. Still there is a bit of a hole at ~2000 rpms or so. I just can't get rid of it. I know what it is, it is the air slowing down in the runners when you snap the throttle open. But that's not what these things are made for. They are made for 3000 and up, maybe 3500 and up... I could probably put smaller chokes in and lose some top end and make it better, but who wants to do that?!? Every Mikuni powered car that I've been in has had that problem though... Supposedly the Webers should be better than the Mikunis on that hesitation, but aside from that one hiccup if I rev it up and dump the clutch it doesn't hesitate. Just roasts the tires until I let off... I agree with you though, some ported SU's would be the perfect street setup IMO. Triples definitely aren't the ideal street setup, although I did drive mine in traffic for a couple years with no big problems, just took some getting used to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z-ya Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 I'ver 250 at the seen over 250 at the wheels running stock turbo EFI. The turbo AFM is a bit larger than the NA one, so maybe that is the restriction. BTW, the track car I tuned got 164HP at the wheels, with the injectors close to 100% duty cycle. That's pretty much all you can expect from the stock NA injectors. I was also running stock fuel pressure, so you could get more with more pressure. This car is running a Megasquirt, so there is no AFM to get in the way. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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