351W or 306

[hat1324]

I have a 302 block sitting in my garage... Rent and bills are paid... that means I have 1200 coming this month for the car. and saving is not a problem

This month: The longblock

 

My mustang friend though has been pointing me in the 351 direction based on my wants and needs. Its going in a Z car and theres no better place then here to post my questions..

My setup:

Engine, 306 or 351

Forged bottom

Boosted(turbo)

Water/air intercooled with radiator

5speed trans

 

 

I want a Streetable car, If I were building a drag only id go totaly different.

 

I want driveable gas mileage. Its a weekend car but my daily sux. and Id like to be able to cruise for less then $100.

 

I want turbo because while not on boost its nice running, easy to drive and not under the strain.

 

I want the motor to be able to handel the boost and the power

 

I want to be able to do more then drag. Whats the point of a 500+hp Datsun.. If I wanted to go ONLY straight Id bought a fox.

 

 

Besides SBC what would you guys go with.. Everyone and there grandma goes with the chevy.. Time for a change.

 

Hitman?, anyone elese?

[Guest Magnum Rockwilder]

Streetable = 351.

 

You can build a more powerful 351 that still acts milder than an equivalent 302 on the street, due to the facts that:

 

a) a larger engine is less affected by a radical cam, and

 

a larger motor will produce more low end torque and be more streetable.

 

Do a 351 and then drop in a 408 stroker crank when the budget allows. I have a buildup for a 500hp/550tq 393 stroker, and it was built with basic off the shelf parts for $2200.

[hat1324]

Do a 351 and then drop in a 408 stroker crank when the budget allows. I have a buildup for a 500hp/550tq 393 stroker' date=' and it was built with basic off the shelf parts for $2200.[/quote']

boosted?

 

 

and I think I may be able to get a deal with the builder.. His shop has a ebay store but no website.. Im a designer.. hmmmm.....

[Guest Magnum Rockwilder]

boosted?

 

Nope, that was all-motor. I don't have any idea where the spec sheet is because I recently moved, but it consisted of:

 

351w block, clearanced for 393 stroker crank (which is now superceded by a 408 stroker crank)

long tube large primary headers

"worked over" Edelbrock heads

Torker II intake

750 DP carb

Comp 230º cam

 

...plus the usual valvetrain upgrades.

 

I believe the exact power numbers were 497hp @ 5800rpm/549tq @ 4200rpm.

[zgeezer]

If your block is a roller 302 and you intend on a total rebuild, then I suggest you look over the 331 stroker kits (Coast Mustang's come to mind). This is a nice package and a great compromise between size, light weight and cubic inches. If you must have 400+ ci, then the 351 will do it, but if your choice is between a 351 and a 331, I'd take the 331. I've driven both the 331 and the 427 (Stroked 351, really 426) in early Falcons and the only, repeat, ooonly advantage to the bigger engine was about .3 of a second: 10.84 vs 11.12.

 

g

[hat1324]

If your block is a roller 302 and you intend on a total rebuild' date=' then I suggest you look over the 331 stroker kits (Coast Mustang's come to mind). This is a nice package and a great compromise between size, light weight and cubic inches. If you must have 400+ ci, then the 351 will do it, but if your choice is between a 351 and a 331, I'd take the 331. I've driven both the 331 and the 427 (Stroked 351, really 426) in early Falcons and the only, repeat, ooonly advantage to the bigger engine was about .3 of a second: 10.84 vs 11.12.

 

g[/quote']

 

 

I dont want to stroke the motor.. Maybe if I went with the 306. Im prefectly happy with the size of the 351, infact... I wanted the smallest motor with the cheapest power..

THE BLOCK is what im concerned with. I want about 350 N/A and with boost 500.. Im told though, with my build list to expect another 50 N/A and 100 boosted

The 302 lets go at 500

the Chevy SBC lets go at the same

[Hitman47]

Dude first thing about a 408 is that it sucks, Usually 99.9 percent of the time the rod pin hole is in the ring wich traps oil and puts massive strain on your engine, which in turn causes an unstable but powerful motor. 408`s got populkar for circle tracker gran am`s wehen chevy`s came out with the 406 stroker. Remember when strokers were first popular and all the real knowledgeable guys said stay away from them, thats due to that problem. Sure they were torque monsters with a 4.00 stroke or 4.1 [i forget] But they wore out fast. They were race engines. How many seasons does a race engine go for? 15 races? 20 ? @ 25 miles a peice? My dad built a 408w in 1995 during the stroker expensive days and the rod blew at 1000 miles in a 66 cobra that wieghed 2300 lbs. Anyways so you all sound intelligent to a rea rodder 408`s and 347`s absolute junk in my opinion. I have a 383w and it can rev to 8500 where is the same 408 crank is rated at 6800. Think what a stock 351/400m crank is good to 5800 rpm`s my guess.

 

But hat to awnser your question 500hp on a 5.0 is certain engine failure due to cracking of the block, especially boosted http://www.turbomustangs.com/redirects/featuredcars.htm

step 1-go to stock block chronicles

 

Q: How much power can the stock block handle?

A: There are several answers to this, do you want a combo you never have to worry about, a semi-reliable combo, or a time-bomb / glory machine? For a reliable setup 450rwhp seems to be the limit, anything above that and you are asking for trouble. For a glory pass the stock blocks on turbomustangs.com have seen 600rwhp. You must also take into account RPM. Most guys on turbomustangs.com keep their turbo combos below 6000rpm. But if you are making 500rwhp and revving to 7000rpm it is a safe bet you will crack before the 6000rpm 550rwhp guy.

 

Q: What happens when the block fail due to excessive power?

A: Typically the block splits right down the middle starting at the threaded bolt holes in the main webs (where main bolts thread in) and work their way upwards towards the cam bearings and ultimately end in the lifter valley

 

Q: Will a main stud girdle help keep the block from breaking?

A: Ha, ha, no. All it will is hold all the parts together in a tidy pile. Some of the failures pictured below were equipped with stud girdles.

 

Q: Is it possible to have a cracked block and not know it? Like the motor still runs fine with no noises.

A: Yes, in some cases where the block has not cracked completely, the only thing you may notice is a drop in oil pressure (assuming you have an oil pressure gauge).

 

Q: Should I turbocharge my stock 93+ shortblock, ie: won't the hypereutectic pistons break?

You can absolutely turbocharge a hyper-piston engine. In fact 2 of the combos below had hyper pistons and the pistons were fine when the block split in half. It all comes down to the tune. I also have a friend who sprayed a 150 shot on his 93 GT for many years and ran 11.0's all day and NEVER had a piston failure.

 

Q: Can I crack a Dart, R302 or A4 block? ie: How much power can they handle?

A: None of the experienced racers on turbomustangs.com have seen any of the above blocks break. The blocks in question have seen up to 1600hp and beyond.

 

Stock block carnage: We are assuming the failures below were due to power alone. Thus we are assuming that the tune was good, the car wasn't detonating or running lean. This is a fairly safe assumption because if these engines were detonating the pistons would likely be in many different pieces.

 

 

 

The stock 351 block is rated at about 580-7700 hp thats a conservative number also. Trust me a 5.0 block thats not a dart world products or dss racing will not hold up to 500+ boosted power never. Here are some q and a`s from turbomustang.com [by the way everyone bookmark that site it is one of the most powerful {upper hand on chevy} thing we ford guys have are the 5.0/5.8 ease of turbo.] So now on to your others

 

Q. I want a Streetable car, If I were building a drag only id go totaly different.

A. No replacement for displacment, and why build a 306 when you could have a 351 for the same price now days. Not only that, You could probably use the stock rods and pistons they were very strong. Also if you have ever seen the bottom main caps of a windsor it looks like a chevy big block just huge bolts a huge caps, There is a reason the 351 wieghs 50-80 lbs more its all muscle meat. Also the 302`s were more power bandy where is a 351 boosted is alot smoother. I rode in my dads friends cobra 302 with vortech and it felt like a street bike you would bog due to the low comp ratio and then hit the power band and it would roast them everytime because it was like hitting a 150 shot. My dads 393w has the same 500 lbs of tq across the power band so you dont have to worry about it all the sudden engaging and ripping loose around a corner. Also better for low comp with boost because has so much torque anyways. A 302 with 10.5-1 feels about the same powwr wise as a 8-1 351.

 

Q. I want driveable gas mileage. Its a weekend car but my daily sux. and Id like to be able to cruise for less then $100.

A. 5.0/5/8 wont notice the differance since the late model 351w`s has longer intake runners it oxidizes fuel more effeciently so it evens out. But ci for ci the 351 is more efficent. Why did ford choose the 351 stroke in the 4.6 and not the 5.0 for the modular well its mor efficient, and broader torque band.

 

 

Q. I want turbo because while not on boost its nice running, easy to drive and not under the strain.

 

A. Thats why I chose the windsor instead, I have boost control when im driving around town with a billiet flywheel and alum drive shaft, and knife edged crank i would have to rev a 302 to 3 grand and slip the clutch where is my 383w has all that with o boost running 7.8-1 comp and drives like a normal car on hills!!!! Due to the massive torque. Most people dont realize HP = torque * RPM / 5252

 

Q. I want the motor to be able to handel the boost and the power

A.Defenate no on the handling of a 500+ hp 5.0 block holding up for long, unless you get a dart wp or dss racing block.

 

 

In summary... Im not saying that the 5.0 isnt a good engine I love them teh y are great and have many advantages over the 351 in a light car in drag racing for instance You want the engine to bog of the line so you dont roast the tires all day. If you ever watch the toyota 9 sec cars or mazda rx-7`s they are designed to bog for traction. Then the turbo kicks in and they are a bat out of hell. You see If you dropped the clutch at 3 grand in a 351w you would burn till them while the other guy would still be crossing the finish, where is the 5.0 Bogs a hair so the turbo can wind up and spring up bam you are hitting 1.2`s 60 foot times. But the 351w in 3rd would pull. The perfect example is watch a fox body race a new modular. Practically same displacement but one has huge stroke {tq] and small bore [upper end hp] [modular takes 351 windsor crank and tiny pistons. The other the 5.0 has small crank big pistons [small tq lots hi-hp] The fow will win off the line most everytime because can launch harder without spinning them, where is the modular must dump the clutch about 1800 rpm to bog. Anyways 5.0 are great all purpose motors but 5.8`s are superior in strength power and torque, where is you can rev the crap out of the 5.0. For street use go 351w. Hate to say this but not many chevy guys run 302 chevys over 350`s because you dont loose to much reving but gain tremendous hp and tq and stregth.

 

My opinion hands down street car 351w, on the track may be dangerous due to downshifts a hard throttle pumps because it will pitch you sidways but street car 351w hands down. Also in a z the last thing you want is a peaky power bandy thjing that lights them up as soons as you goose it at 4000rpm

 

Chad

[Hitman47]

No offense but zgeezer, The concept of a 427 small block is rediculous and is usually a ploy a 331 is a great engine but dosnt have 1/2 the strength that the 351 block does when boost is involved it turns things around alot. And its not about speed because who ever put together a 427 sbf and only gained that over 331 did it on purpose didnt get traction or was a little motorly challenged the 427 sbf can get double the hp of a 331 when done right but for how long? Ive built a 400 hp 5.0 and a 620 hp 351 windsor. It really is almost the differance between big block and smallblock. All these 408-even 455 sbf kits are made for one purpose 2500 miles of pure victory where they are abused and pushed hard to there limits sometimes 8000 rpm. I hada bracket racing but who ran a 414 sbf and put 722 hp on methanol for 15000 miles and there is no way the 5.0 could have even ran on an engine stand before cracking because of 550 hp. The 351 is defenately the superior motor.

 

On the other hand I disagree with magnum largest safe stroker package so far to my knowledge...Im up to #72 built ford engines, and highest is 393ci, I even went with a 383 becuase its got a longer rod than 408 but shorter stroke wich means better and more powerful, due to engine physics. I also have a coast kit

[280zwitha383]

Hitman, there are two things that strike me when reading your post.

 

The first is that a 406 is not a stroked chevy engine. It is a 400 small block with a .30 over bore.

 

The other thing is your footer. How can you claim goodbye Mr. Bowtie when the only thing that is Ford on your engine is the block if even that. If everything else is aftermarket then your engine is no longer a "Ford" engine and anyone who put the same money (and turbo) in a similar block of any making would have the same power. It just doesn't make sense unless you just don't like Chevy engines.

 

I will say however that besides the Chevy/Ford biases, you have a very nice setup

[Hitman47]

First I realize the 406 is .30 over 400...But do not understand why you dont understand why the need for a sbf had to exist to compete with it on the track to keep up with it? A stroker is just a hybrid engine so in a way the chevy 400 was a hybrid made by chevy. Chevy had to awnser back to the 351c and 340 hemi so it built a 350 block with a bigger bore and taller crank. So when 400 became popular with dirt trackers/oval and the 377/406 was used ford boys had to awnser back since nascar dosent allow the 351c due to the heads the came up with the max ci limit 408 w stroker. Did what I say sound that ludicris? maybe so? Also i was teased by some of my chevy friends about how I could never build a ford that could beat a built lt1 for the price...i could have used all ford racing parts if that would have appeased you and then it would be for. My point in my sig is chevy guys always brag about how cheap and superior there engines are I know this because i was one of them until I saw the main caps on a 351w and realized that in my opinion it was a far superior design to that of even the big bad 4 bolt chevy. I rather have the 2 bolt for than the 4 bolt chwvy anyday, but not 3 years ago i was a die hard bowtie engine builder. I finally saw to many rod`s snap and got sick of cutting holes in my firewall to set my engines back. The only problem where chevy is superior toi ford is the distributor system but now that there is msd/jacobs I see no advantage with chevy. Also I found chevy to be liars about rated hp and ford to be accurate. I personnally dyno`d 3 z06`s at my friends shop it was a big bas 405 hp motor that only put 372.5@7800 and put 355 hp @ its redline. Where is all three 2003 mustangs that where rated at 390 hp where from 387-411hp all below redline it finnally sold me. Anyways I have 36 chevys under my belt and know that i work at the ford perf shop im in the 70`s. Fords do eat distributor gears though. Anyways they said it couldnt be done to beat a all chevy built lt-1

but even without my turbo my motor would cost me 3400 with tranny and at 10.7 to 1 like the lt1 would have 620 hp about 200 hp more for about the same price as a rebuilt stock lt1 with t-56 tranny

 

Chad

[280zwitha383]

Well now you have me curious. How do you get an honest 620 hp and claim that you would get 200 more hp than a chevy engine built the same way. Is it because you can spin the thing a lot faster because of the larger main caps?

[hat1324]

i love this board...

 

 

im trying to find a builder in indy... just for the shortblock really(i dont have the tools to balance everything)

im on corral and stangnet looking up cheap blocks... maybe ill just buy a old van and get the 351 and the 9"

[Hitman47]

Not built the same but built for the same price my friend. Price was the issue. The Bowtie boys say chevy is better because price and abundance of parts and they used to be right...Until now...now its a level playing field except one thing...We have way easier turbo installation. I`d say a good 30 % of ford guys plan on using turbo`s where is checvy we only have a few per capita.

 

Chad

[Hitman47]

hat look on ebay i good a prepped 72 351 for 300$ then the rotating assymbly you can for 1200 $ machine work 150 bap you have a potential 500+engine easy.

 

To 383, I do respect your choice of chevy 383 stroker, it is probably the most proven stroker ever to be made. Gobs of tq and great tq band all the way to about 6-6500...Most realiable hands down. My second favorite engine had it in a 56 chevy bel air ran 11.8 1/4

 

Chad

[hat1324]

what is the big difference between the older 351s and the newer ones?

[Hitman47]

About 20 lbs of cast iron on all the main webbing where the block derives its strength from. Also Better casting techniques. And the water pump was on opposite side and a few other things, but mainly strength, about 250 hp worth.

 

Chad

[hat1324]

yeah I read about it.. the sportsman blocks have the old school webbing..

what year is the last year of the good block? 74?

[Hitman47]

72 1/2

[hat1324]

are you sure? I heard at least 74.

I could get a 76 for cheap

[Hitman47]

thats probably why its so cheap but ill ask my pro pro pro tommarrow at the shop