single stage vs. 2 stage? (Triple Black question too)

[scott19]

Ok, I'm at the point where it's time to choose my paint. I was going to go with a 2 stage system, but now I'm wondering if single stage might be a better choice. I'm going with PPG, and I wanted Triple Black, but the local dealer was unfamiliar with the term. After doing some searches online, I was under the understanding that 9300 was the code for Triple Black, which is PPG's Concept single stage line. Is that correct? As far as the dealer knows, it's just black.

What are the advantages to single stage, and how different is it to shoot than a base coat/clear coat? I would think it'd be easier, just a question of adding more coats of the color, with no clearing at the end. I'm looking for "new car" quality, not "show car" quality. I've read that single stage is easier to repair, and can theoretically be "blacker".

Any comments would be greatly appreciated!

[AK-Z]

I'm not an expert but it sounds like it would be easier to do body work on afterwards.

 

Think about what you would have to do to do repairs for dents.

sand down the area, then plastic filler, sand, then primer, then paint, and not wash the car for 2 weeks (let it cure completely). with 2 stage it would be alot more steps and I wouldn't think that it would look right afterwards.

 

Anyways personally I would at least put a basecoat before single stage, just to make it thorogh.

 

Added befiets for 2 stage is that is stronger than single stage and doesn't chip as much as single, but that is do to layering coats before the previous layer is set (not cured, flash time).

 

I would use a epoxy primer (2 part primer) maybe 2 coats, then as many coats of single that you want. For most paints the flash time is 15-30 min, just to the point that when you check by touch that the strands of paint strech to about an inche.

 

You probably know more about paint than me, but I like to remind my self some times:D and some else might learn something.

[DemonZ]

I went through your dilemma and ended up spraying single stage black PPG Concept incase of repair work. It can be clear coated if you want.

 

 

My regret is I wish I wasn't so concerned with running the paint. The last coat had some orange peel, so I ended up color sanding almost the whole car and compound/buffing it. I really wanted a black glass look. Compared to the non cut paint, the gloss is noticeable. Mostly the depth is gone. The difference is about the same as a washed car, vs a car washed and waxed. I tried to power compound the hell out of it too, still no match for the uncut paint.

 

 

I will prolly end up clear coating it. If I had to do it again, I'd lay down the last coat fairly wet and worry about the hangers/drips later. Cutting down a couple of drips (you don't want the paint oozing off either) is much better than doing the whole car.

[mom'sZ]

OK... paint and body man for twenty five years. First, black is black is black. PPG or some other manufactor may call thier particular type black paint triple black or whatever but, that's the one cool thing about black, whatever brand, type, or what ever black, it always matches. Black is black. It's the only color that can be panel painted and assure a good match. And that is one great reason to go black, repairability.

 

The question of single stage or two stage, for black, this is up to the painter. If a lay person can tell the difference, the painter screwed up. But here's some food for thought. Base coat, the first stage of two stage paint is different from single stage or clear. It is fast drying, like old fashion laquaer. You spray it on and a few minutes later you can touch it, it's dry to the touch. In this way, and this is the advantage of two stage, you get the color on the car, laid out nice and covering good, then you slam it with the clear. The base provides color, the clear just provides the shine. Single stage and clear are wet longer. Stuff (dirt dust bugs ect.) gets in it. It must be sprayed in a spray booth. The base dries so quick, if something gets in it, you wait a sec and simply sand it out, dust another coat on and keep going.

Now, sanding and polishing. I always thought they look better straight out of the booth with no sanding or polishing. It's hard (impossible really) to get all the swirl marks out of a paint job. Black is the worst about this. They do have some product, soft polishing bonnets made from foam and super mild polishing compounds made for swirl removal. (see your paint supplier) If you don't have access to a booth this may be your only alternative.

Have fun, sorry for another long post, and before you spray your first ounce of black make sure your bodywork is PERFECT, black shows everything!!!

[mom'sZ]

RacerX:

 

I was wondering if you were lurking. In the day, I used to use the term blue black and brown black. It was my experience that all blacks either had a brown cast or a blue cast. (what I considered a brown cast may have been what you call a red cast) At the time I knew which manufacturer's blacks were which. It was my understanding at that time, and this could be all wrong, but it was my understanding that all blacks are made from mixing together other colors. Some using mostly brown as a starting point and others blue. Anyhow, I always preferred the blue black, I just never realized anybody but me ever noticed the difference. I thought about mentioning it in my first post but decided it was to technical. Polishing them seemed to make the cast come out more.

Anyhow, that was one hell of an experiment you did. My hats off to you! Also... you've used Standox? I started a job once and that was the paint they used. I never had even heard of the stuff before that. Well, it took some getting used to, but once I figured it out I LOVED IT!!! Was sorry when the manager quit and the new guy brought in BASF. Hated that stuff at first to, but later got used to it and loved it as well!?! bla ha ha ha...

sorry to original poster for thread jack

good to see you X

[scott19]

Thanks to everyone for your replies, each one of you had valuable info for me. Special thanks to you, Racer X. It seems there is no bottom to your well of knowledge.

I believe I'm going to go with the bc/cc system. Mom'sZ, you made a good point concerning the swirl issue with black. I have a dark green Mustang that looks awful if hit with full on sunlight, due to the swirl marks it's acquired over 15 years. I'd like to keep the maintenance down as much as possible, and the idea of having to polish single stage to be equal to the gloss of bc/cc is not overly appealing, so having a smooth as possible finish is more important than whether it's a deeper black than the next guy. And oh yes, I know the bodywork has to be spot on. I'm spending a week's worth of vacation time this week doing nothing but working on the body of this car, playing "find the flaw". Feels like there's a 1000 square feet of body panels on this thing!

[AK-Z]

I really like black especially on the sexy lines of the first gen Z, but black also reveals imperfection a whole lot more than lets say white. body prep/work has to be cherry if you want it to look good.

[DemonZ]

RacerX,

 

That's what my buddy said. He used the same paint in dark blue and said he had to really bear down on it to get a shine. He used a 3M product. For some reason, back when I did mine, I used 2 PPG products, 1 compound and 1 polishing product specific for my freshly laid paint. It was some special "chemical" process as it had no real grit residue on my buffing wheel later. I used the wool and waffle sponge pad with it. I wouldn't buy that again. That was 12 years ago. So the details are a little foggy...

 

 

Anyhow, since then I've noticed on the hood very fine hairline sanding scratches! They are from the body work . The thing was like glass when I did the wet 400/500 guide coat, I swear they weren't there on color sand. I used K36 primer/surfacer, it's lower build than K200 but it sands smoother.

 

 

So, I'm guessing that either the filler or the primer surfacer shrank. I allowed ample time for each product to catalyze and for solvents to vent and was very conscious of this. I think I even put a heat lamp on it. From the looks of it, they could be 36/80 grit scratches. Which would mean it was the "pinhole" ultra smooth bondo that shrank, --ironic, that is exactly what I used it for!!

 

 

 

When I finally get the car together...(I know, I know 12 years?!!) I will hit it hard with the 3M stuff, and see if I can live with the shine and sanding scratches. If not, I will go over it with another couple coats of Concept single. I'll post picks when I'm finally done.

[mom'sZ]

X:

yeah, you get used to what you're using. You know it works and how and can be confident of producing a job with a certain level of quaility. All brands of paint work subtly different. Painters deal with a thousand different variables everyday. (as you know) Most brands of paint have at least three different reducers, sometimes multiple hardeners, and it's only through using each in varying conditions that true expertease (with that brand) comes. And what you mentioned about taking extra time and the boss getting irate, that's it! Knowing a material is mostly knowing what you can skip. If it's a new material, you can't skip anything.

It's a business where a guy's pride in what he does means everything. As a painter you live or die by your reputation. You impress me as a guy who takes enormous pride in what he does.

[Nismo280zEd]

good to see all the painters coming together and conversing with one another. All to often I find painters keeping quiet as to not share their "trade secrets". With more time and experience I hope to one day be as good as you two are at your trade.

-Ed

[mom'sZ]

Ed:

 

I'm a fairly new member here and I read the forum for months before joining. I worked as a paint and body guy for twenty five years. I have absolutly no intention of doing any paint and body work on my car anytime soon. But I feel like painting and especially body work, heavy collision and unibody repair are things I know a great deal about and might have something useful to share with the group. Since a lot of the stuff I need to learn about in other facets of working on Zs other members have taught me, I figure checking the paint and body thread is my way of returning to the forum. RacerX has earned my respect as a painter just reading his threads. This is a great resource and, to me, what the internet is all about... LONG LIVE HYBRIDZ!!!!!!!!!!

[scott19]

Alright guys, get a room!

 

A little update: I've bought the paint (PPG Deltron 2000 system bc/cc).

I'm Just finishing ups a few odds and ends with the bodywork, then It'll be ready to shoot. My buddy's (who is doing the spraying) Devilbiss gun died on him, so I ordered one of the Finishline Gun kits from Eastwood. RacerX and Mom'sZ, do you have any opinions on these guns? I know it's cheap, but I've heard good things about them. I'm not needing it to last past this job.

[mom'sZ]

I remember finishline guns, but never used one. I think they are made by Devilbiss. What is wrong with your buddy's gun? Unless it was thrown or dropped it should still be good and probably just needs a good cleaning. Most cheap guns spray pretty good, at least at first. I'm not so sure I'd want to use one for top coating though.

[scott19]

He said it was "spraying heavier on one side". It's a pretty old gun (gravity feed, part #SGG605) . We used it last year to paint my Kawasaki, and it did well, save for the above mentioned problem. I called Devilbiss and they barely had any parts listings for it, and it would cost $60 for the rebuild parts, so I went ahead and ordered the Finishline kit (34566)for $110 from Eastwood instead. I figured it was sturdy enough for 1 paint job. I think RacerX had something good to say about import guns in another post somewhere.

[Nismo280zEd]

sounds like it just needs a good cleaning or the needle got nicked or dented slightly.

[scott19]

Take the tip cover off and there is ring with holes all the way around. He says it has a tear in that piece, which will cause it to spray heavier if the gun is angled a certain way. Anyway, we're gonna dismantle it and give it a good cleaning. It'll probably be regulated to primer duty from now on. The Finishline gun should be here by Monday.