Guest Anonymous Posted January 21, 2001 Share Posted January 21, 2001 Has anyone done this? Is it possible? I am going to replace my frame rails even though they have absolutely zero rust, I figured if I am going to that much trouble why not slap in a double A-arm setup? Worth the time, effort for the handleing, weight? Any thoughts? Pros, Cons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 22, 2001 Share Posted January 22, 2001 It won't necessarily handle better. It may turn into an undrivable piece of garbage. ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromio Posted January 22, 2001 Share Posted January 22, 2001 The Mustang II front suspension has achieved a very nice network effect. There are alot of companies out there creating variations on this. You can buy very nice dropin systems that include everything, arms, cross member, brakes. Some are very loosely based on MII - geometry and rack only. But, in the same approximate price range, there are systems based on C4 Corvette. I think if you were gonna do it, you would want one of the complete systems with adjustable tubular arms. These range from $2500 to $5000. Pick up a StreetRodder magazine and you'll see lots of ads for various front ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 22, 2001 Share Posted January 22, 2001 If I were to do it I would go with tubular A-arms. The reason I was considering it was to lighten up the front end better brake selection and to get more camber change with body roll. Strut type suspentions can't come close to the ammount of camber change possible with a double A-arm setup! As for becomeing an undriveable piece of garbage, thats what they say when you put a V8 in a Z? Reguardless, I will put a V8 in my Z! Depending mostly on money I might go ahead with the A-arm setup, never know I might change my mind again? Thanks for the replies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 22, 2001 Share Posted January 22, 2001 If your replacing the frame rails with something stronger, the Must. II front end might be pretty cool. I seriously doubt it would handle badly (Lord knows the glut of aftermarket pieces the stock Z front end has suggest its less than optimal), it'll have more alignment adjustments and if you brace things (I.E. frame connectors, 8-10 point cage all tied in) you could trim away the shock towers, weld in a patch giving LOADS of room in the engine bay. As was mentioned, check like Rod and Custom mag. or something of the like, people like Fatman Fabrication or Heidts have kits in varying degree's of finish that are pre notched and ready to weld on. Respectfully, Lone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 22, 2001 Share Posted January 22, 2001 Lone, The cage and beefier side rails was what prompted the idea realy. Another plus I thought about with replaceing the frame rails is I can weld brackets directly to the side rails for the engine mounts (SBC)instead of useing the stock motor mounts. Then again another plus would be power steering from a MII rack. Hmmm well I'll have to see what all this will cost? If you factor in I was going to shell out the money for Arizona Z arms and brakes the mustang II deal wont be all that much more. mustangs use 5 on 4.5 wheel patern right? The 300ZX does it use 5 on 4.5? Well I am almost to the let's do it stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 22, 2001 Share Posted January 22, 2001 Anyone happen to know just off the top of their heads the widths of the 260Z a mustang II, Corvette C4? A-arm lengths ect.? [This message has been edited by Sundance (edited January 22, 2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromio Posted January 22, 2001 Share Posted January 22, 2001 This is an example of a totally custom susp. There are cheaper kits that let you provide some of the hardware from a salvage yard or other supplier (for instance, a C4 kit that has you acquire the a-arms, spindles and hubs from a yard). Most of these come in varying track widths - they mention a 56", narrow version. I'd bet anything that most of these shops would be willing to provide a custom length cross member for an extra fee. MII were all 4 on 4.5, but no one who does this swap uses the MII brakes. I have a MII cross member on my truck and I was able to get a 5 lug (Ford Granada) kit for it. I would agree that if you are considering the expensive aftermarket items for customizing the Z susp., you might be better off going this route and for similar dollars. I was a stupid teenager when I started my 55 Truck project. I got a clip from a junked MII and hacked it apart, stretched the xmember the requisite 4 inches, spent years getting various bits machined, etc. I would've saved lots of time and money in the long run had I simply bought a kit instead. (I'm still not done) Learning things the hard way sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danno74Z Posted January 22, 2001 Share Posted January 22, 2001 Sundance, I was just toying with the idea as you are and here is a site that has a MII frontend. There are LOTS of places that have what you want it just takes $$$. Good Luck. Danno74Z http://www.artmorrison.com/ Go to the frontend products selection on the left side of the page. [This message has been edited by Danno74Z (edited January 22, 2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 It's not an idea anymore! It will be done! I mean just look at the pic jeromio posted slap two framerails in and your done! How hard is that? I'm sure it will take more than that but not much! Now my wife will have to thank you all for finding more ways to spend money on my Z! [This message has been edited by Sundance (edited January 22, 2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 Alright desided to do a price comparison of available Z suspention upgrades to a mustang II suspention they are as follows: 11.5 vented rotor brake kit: 749.00 (Arizona Z) Coil-over springs: 99.00 per side (Arizona Z) Various polyurathane bushings: 40.00 Camber plate: 99.00 per side (Arizona Z) Control Arms: 249.00 per side Arizona Z) Struts: 149.00 per side (Motorsport Auto) Strut bar: 208.00 (Motorsport Auto) Bumpsteer spacers: 62.95 (Motorsport Auto) Quick steering knuckles: 139.95 (Motorsport Auto) Sway bar: 115.00 (Motorsport Auto) Remanufactured rack and pinion: 363.95 (Motorsport Auto) Mine was burned in a fire. Grand Total: Are you sitting down? $2871.80 Granted, most people wouldn't goto this extreme but it would take all of that and more to be compairable to the mustang II suspention! with the strut suspention you get minimal camber gain per body roll. Minimal if any anti-dive. Bumpsteer caused buy lowering useing shorter springs and struts. And pore minimal adjustability. Now the MOST "expensive" complete kit from Heidt's includes: Main crossmember T.l.G. welded for maximum strength and great looks. Our exclusive one piece dropped Mustang II spindles. Adjustable tubular arms. 11" Disc brake vented rotors (choose either Ford or Chevy bolt pattern). Adjustable coil-over shocks with chrome springs. Front-mount rack & pinion steering. Stainless steel adjusters with urethane bushings. Factory ball joints and tie rod ends. Add on: Swaybar: 159.00 Power rack and pinion: 100.00 Tubular frame to connect framerails to the fire wall 100.00 Complete: 2754.00 Or the deluxe mustang II kit with same Add ons: 2154.00 Very compairable by price! [This message has been edited by Sundance (edited January 22, 2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 Comparable prices? The way I see it, you could spend $1k on springs, shocks, and sway bars and be fairly happy. You'd have almost $2k left over and you would be done in a single afternoon. And what would the difference be for driving around town? Absolutely nothing! You can't even be sure that it will net you better overall handling, you're just shooting in the dark basically. Add in camber plates, bushings, and an assortment of springs even and you're still saving over $1k. And don't forget, with the graft-on mustang suspension you have to do things like re-plumb the brakes(with american threads, not metric threads! DOH!), run the steering linkage, and so on. Plus this setup is probably heavier than the stock strut suspension. ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 I did omit some of the cheaper kits available that are priced in the 1300.00 range. The price could further be reduced if you went to the junkyard and used stock mustang pieces! You would, to make it easier have to buy the 400.00 crossmember. I think it could be very do-able for under 1000.00 By compairable, I mean price/performance and tuneablility. Why couldn't you install the Mustang II kit in an afternoon? Weld and assemble right? Yes that is a good point Morgan, you would have to re-plumb the brakelines and or buy braided stainless lines from Earl in a custom metric/sae setup. More than likely you would need a whole new brake setup as well. But all in all not too much trouble. The steering linkage as I see it would net more room for headers. If you kept all the sheetmetal required to have a strut type suspention it would probably be heavier, but this is not nessasry and I belive it could be lighter than a strut set up. I do have a final question though. How many high end cars run strut type suspentions? NONE The comparison above is for all out front suspention ie. tubular A-arms, poly everything maximum tune-ability and 11.5 inch brakes. If you want to add coilovers to make your Z "look" good than of course it will be cheaper to buy the coilovers and a strut bar! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 I haven't seen anyone mention this yet, so I will. I have no info on this, but wondering: Does the suspension geometry of the MII setup have any decent attributes? MII stuff was used for years by the street rod crowd to stuff something better than a straight axle (and lighter) under the old cars. I'm not sure it has a geometry that's good or not. But I'd certainly consider that before moving too far. The good thing is, the picture shows a double wishbone setup - superior in camber curve tuneability, but only if designed correctly. I'd look very closely into what the camber and bumpsteer curves are for these MII setups. I'd hope for all the money in that design, they've optimized this somewhat. I noticed that the Art Morrison IFS is tauted as being designed for zero bumpsteer. Maybe these guys do hav it together. Sorry for my ignorance on this Street Rod stuff, but I just wanted to raise a warning flag that all that shiny stuff may be all looks and not really designed with optimal handling in mind. Buyer beware. ------------------ Pete Paraska - 73 540Z - Marathon Z Project pparaska@home.com Pete's V8 Datsun 240Z Pages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromio Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 Well, as to the technical value of the Strut suspension, BMW has done beautifully with it. They are lauded as suspension experts. But, regardless, I think it would be very cool to see an A-arm Z Car and I for one encourage you to pursue it. Personally, If I had the dollars, I would do Heidt's Superide. But, and this is a definate advantage of going this route, there are at least 5 reputable shops that produce complete front suspension systems that you can choose from. The steering and brakes will be, I think, pretty easy to do. Borgeson sells a wide variety of couplers and etc. and I could make an SAE/Metric adapter myself in about 5 minutes. I do think it will take you more than a weekend to do this - but that's obvious. If you want the weight savings, you'd have to go to a tubular set up much like either Ron Jones' car or else SpencZ's car (whatever happened to him?). Otherwise, you need all that (heavy) sheetmetal for structure. But, I'd guess that even if you left the rest of the car alone, weight differences between the strut suspension and the double A-Arm one would be negligible, and would favor the aftermarket (nonZ) setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 Well, 911s have strut suspension. They handle pretty good I hear. BWMs do as well. If it's good enough for the ultimate driving machine and a 450hp 911 turbo, then it's probably good enough for me as well! And listen to pete - you don't know diddly about the specific geometry of this suspension. It could be incredibly awesome, or it could be the crappiest suspension ever designed. The fact that it stems from decades old american car design doesn't encourage me(made as cheap and as easy to assemble as possible). There is nothing wrong with struts, and S30 Z cars are some of the winningest cars ever raced. Struts aren't all that bad. Ever wonder why it's called a chapman strut in the rear? Because Colin Chapman came up with the idea, and it still serves on lotuses to this day. And the fact is, that unless you're an engineering and/or very well versed in suspension design, a project such as this will probably leave lots to be desired when it's all said and done. For us normal people, the ultimate capability of major things like the type of suspension, pushrods or OHC engines, etc. will never be utilized, so the difference between the choices shouldn't be made on which has better ultimate potential since you'll never reach it's ultimate potential. ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RON JONES Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 I would love to see this convertion done.I believe you would save weight losing all the heavy sheet metal as jeromio said.Also it is sooooo nice having a removable front end,it makes working on the car a lot easyer.It takes me about two minutes to have my front end off,I love it.Do your homework,there is a lot of kits out for you to chose from.I'm not to sure what Morgan has against A-arm front ends,but if you take a look at,oh maybe SK-Modified's,Bush cars,Winston Cup cars,etc,I believe all these cars use a-arm front ends and I think Indy Cars also use a a-arm type of front end(I could be wrong).I don't think there are all these after market companies making this set up because it sucks. [This message has been edited by RON JONES (edited January 23, 2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 Well, we will have to see the merits of this idea once it's done? Pete, I am going to try to get the supention measurements from a couple of suppliers I noticed that Heidts claims to be "exactly" the same as a MII suspention and Art Morrison has "improved" upon the MII design. Even so I still belive IMHO that a unequal length A-arm set up is supperior to a strut-type setup. There are both pro's and con's to both types the best arguement to keep the strut suspention is ease. Morgan, you were kidding when you said you could do a coilover setup in an afternoon right? As was I when I said you could weld up a MII kit! LOL Ok, Ok, BMW I'll give credit to morgan and jeromio for BMW! Sorry, But the 911? Have you driven one? Horrible understeer that is until throttle lift then massive oversteer! Very touchy car! It is not very forgiveing but for the fact they designed tons of understeer to make it somewhat safe for public roads! This is mostly caused by the engine being aft but the suspention design after all it's refinement is still less than desireable. As for a strut type suspention for the rear I think is a very desireable setup with the minimal camber gain and light weight! I do have one question how do I make the Z more rigid to tortional force once the upper front frame is removed? I was thinking a tube simular to racecars? What is the lightest way to triangulate the front member? Ron, could you e-mail me some pics of your setup? frame ect. Morgan, jeromio, lone, Danno, Pete, and ron! Thanks for your help with the Pro's and Con's you all have come up with parts of this idea I wouldn't have til later in the game. If you have any other thoughts or opinions please share them! Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 No doubt, read a couple of suspension books. The double A-arm system, WHEN DESIGNED CORRECTLY, will give much better camber curves, wheel scrub, etc. than a strut. The question is whether the aftermarket MII stuff has been designed with all this in mind. The other issue is that to get these designs right, you need to start with a tire diameter at the least, and a wheel offset is also important. So if they designed it, they needed to start somewhere - find out what wheel tire is optimal for that setup. Then again, the struts will do just fine for me. I'd LOVE to have a new BMW M3, struts and all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RON JONES Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 Pics are on the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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