Mack Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 would it be possible for me to make a 36-1 wheel out of the 360 slit chopper wheel in my distributor? or, I guess it would have to be a 72 - 2 wheel, right? what Im thinking is using paint or something to fill in all the holes I dont need on the 360 tooth wheel... is this feasible or am I just crazy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators BRAAP Posted June 17, 2006 Administrators Share Posted June 17, 2006 Mack-daddy, How you doing buddy. You are on the right track in regards to tooth count in the dizzy. If you want your EDIS trigger to be in the DIZZY or even on the cam, it will need to be a 72-2 tooth wheel. As for using paint to fill in the gaps? If I understand your idea, you want to use “paint” to fill in the extra gaps in the 360 tooth wheel that you have currently so that EDIS will register 36-1 teeth for every crank revolution, (i.e. in the dizzy, 72-2 tooth count). Sorry, but that won’t work. The trigger is magnetic. Paint will not fool the EDIS module. You can take a 36-1 wheel and fill in all the gaps with paint, epoxy, fiber glass, or even aluminum, and the EDIS will still run just fine. In other words, the paint wont fool the EDIS module into thinking those gaps don’t exist. You will need a 72-2 wheel made of ferrous material if you want it in the dizzy or on the cam, or a 36-1 wheel made of ferrous material on the crank. We built a nice little EDIS test bench and posted all of test results with detailed pics thus far. If you haven’t seen it, you might read through it as it should help shed some light on the EDIS system as a whole and what it takes for it operate. That thread can be viewed here… http://www.msextra.com/viewtopic.php?t=14920 Also, this thread started by Z-ya Pete, has some valuable info as well, if you haven’t seen it yet.. http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=103781 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Posted June 17, 2006 Author Share Posted June 17, 2006 hrmm, lemme explain it a little better... I have the optical distributor off of an 83 280ZXT and I was talking about covering all of the slits not necessary on the 360 tooth side of the "chopper wheel" . If you crack open a 280ZXT dist. you will find that there are actuallly 2 optical pickups, one with 6 slits and one with 360 slits. When wiring up MS&S_E as per Mobys instructions, you only use the wheel with 6 slits. thats why there is one un-used wire coming out of the dizzy. I was thinking of using paint to fill in 288 of the 360 slits to simulate a 36-1 wheel running at half engine speed. It wouldnt be using a hall effect sensor, but the wheel in the optical dist.. would now simulate teh output of a 36-1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators BRAAP Posted June 18, 2006 Administrators Share Posted June 18, 2006 Ok, that makes a little more sense. Thank you for clarifying. So you want to use your Optical trigger to run the EDIS ignition instead of the OE ford 36-1 and VR sensor, (for what its worth, EDIS uses a VR sensor, not “hall effect”. They are different). This is an intriguing concept. I’m not sure how the EDIS module would interpret that signal or if it even could. Below is a picture of the signal of an OE EDIS 36-1 and VR sensor captured on Ron’s Fluke “O” scope on our EDIS Test Bench. This picture captured the missing tooth as well. I do know that the EDIS module will still operate with a signal that is somewhat skewed from this signal, but I’m not sure how skewed the signal can be before the EDIS Module can’t interpret it anymore. I’m sure the optical signal doesn’t look like the VR signal pictured below, in fact, I would guess the optical signal would be more of a square wave, much like a hall effect signal. You might search the MS-EFI-EDIS forum to see if anyone has done any tinkering with optical triggers for EDIS. I personally would love to test optical triggers and “hall effect” triggers with EDIS on our Test bench, but we won’t have the time to run the Test Bench again till this winter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
510six Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 I had to do quite a bit of reseach on sensors to make my AEM EMS trigger correctly.A VR sensor is just a very small generator and at low rpm puts out a very small (less than 1 volt) while a hall effect and the Nissan optical trigger both put out a 5 volt square wave signal.An EDIS module is setup for recieving a signal from a VR sensor then converts it to a square wave signal.If your 36-1 wheel is in the distributor then it needs to be a 60-2 wheel as the dist runs at half crank speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad-ManQ45 Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 It is my understanding that for EDIS to work you have to have a 36-1 wheel on the crank or flywheel, or a 72-2 on the cam or in the distributor. This is a limitation of the EDIS module itself, looking for x number of signals per revolution. I can't remember the thread, but I am sure it was on the MSEFI forum under MSNS_EDIS... I seem to recall someone stating that the 72-2 wasn't the best way to go in the dizzy, but I don't think there was anything to back that up...but I would imagine it's the same as with any distributor involved - slop in the gears gives less timing accuracy. Of course, by putting the wheel on the cam gear that goes away. The wheel decoder in MSNS_E is for other ignition options, such as wasted spark with two or more VB921's (depending upon # of cylinders) or even true COP. I myself am planning on using 6 VB921's to drive 6 Suzuki GSXR600 coils on my '83ZXT. I've already bought 8 of them for a total of $40 including shipping in two buys off of EBay. Magnets cost ~$16 - the magnets themselves are cheap, the handling charge gets you. VB921's are about $6 a pop. So for ~$100 you have wasted spark COP, and the nice feature of limiting RPM by spark control that you don't have with EDIS. By utilizing the Suzuki coils (those engines spin to 14k rpm), I should have no problem at a lowly 6k max even with wasted spark. This will avoid the issue of spark being a bit weak because of some small bit of energy going to the waste cylinder from the coil pack. Since I am not going to tear into the engine anytime soon (I hope), I am simply going to use a hall sensor and put 12 magnets on the back side of the dampener, one being reversed for a 12-1 wheel and use the wheel decoder in MSNS_Extra. August will be the last time my car needs to be emissions tested here in the Atlanta area, so shortly after that I will be starting on the MS project. I am hoping that the MSNS_E code will be ported to MSII by then, but there seems to be a daughtercard in beta testing now that will allow us to run both MSI and MSII processors and code concurrently - MSI & MSNS_E for spark and MSII for fuel, giving us the higher resolution for fueling that some big injectors need. I am also waiting for the GPIO board so that I can put a 4L60E behind the L28, not wanting to fool with the 700R4/R200/4 and linkage. I won't delay ripping the stock stuff out for this, but with Atlanta traffic the T5 is no longer fun and I want to use this car as a daily driver for gas mileage reasons (currently I am dring a Town Car and the wife a '94 Q45A - she'll start using the TC because it gets better mileage and regular gas to boot). I've been reading and planning for 2 years for this fall's project, and yes, it'll be a bit more expensive, but the benefits will be commensurate, and it will look cool too! Sorry if I've rambled, but there are options other than EDIS, but if you want to use it 36-1 or 72-2 is the only way you can... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators BRAAP Posted June 18, 2006 Administrators Share Posted June 18, 2006 Thank you for your input Brad-Man. Your sport bike coil set up sounds like a great set up. Looking forward to hearing more about it as you progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Posted June 18, 2006 Author Share Posted June 18, 2006 Ill have to delve into this more on the MSEFI site. although, their search engine sucks. wont let you narrow it down to a particular forum. I was reading on the EDIS set-up and it seems as though it converts teh wave pattern of the VR into a square patter much like that of an optical pick-up. I wonder if there is a way to bypass the wave pattern part and feed the square directly in. Im just looking to skirt the whole issue of machining my crank dampner for a 36-1 wheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z-ya Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 The EDIS module takes the VR sensor output, and converts it to a PIP signal. The PIP signal is a +12V square wave that goes high every time a coil fires. So unless you plan on designing some new hardware to convert a +5V output from you optical pickup, to a PIP signal, then you should probably stick with the 36-1 wheel. The other option is to make major changes to the MS code to support the optical pickup +5V output. The 36-1 wheel is not hard to mount, and the EDIS system in general is easy to install. It is also very realiable as the EDIS module is totally potted in some sort of vibration proof gue. It is OEM hardware, and designed to be mounted in the engine comartment. High quality hardware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Posted June 20, 2006 Author Share Posted June 20, 2006 hrmmmmmm..... another idea here... can I make a wheel out of thin sheet-metal? or does it have to be thick to get a good signal? I can just bolt it on my crank damnpner where the 3rd pulley bolts on! I have a 1980 280ZX so the outer most belt groove is removable. and I dont have PS or AC anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z-ya Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Yes, you can make it out of steel, and bolt it to your crank pully. That is what most people do. You don't want it too thin though. 1/8" steel is probably the thinest I would go. You also need to put the whole assembly on a lath to true it up. If I had enough people interested, I could have a friend make a bunch of them on his plasma cutter. I would need at least 10 people. The cost might be in the $80 to $120 range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
award280 Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 The trouble I'm having is that I want to keep my PS and AC, which limits my options of putting the 36-1 wheel on the crank pulley I would think. So, from what I understand, my options are to try to find a way to attache the wheel to the front or rear of the crank pulley or the cam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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