Guest Mike Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Hi All... I've been doing some research on Octane Boosters and avoiding ping with Nitrous Boost. Also... negative affects of Premium Unleaded Fuels (Ethyl and Methyl Alcohols) on fuel tanks, lines, seals, etc. Many say that adding Toluene or Xylene is the way to go and a few say that Direct Progressive Injection of either of these reaps the greatest rewards regarding parts safety and long-term economy. Others say use Tetraethyl Lead added to the fuel tank because it's the very best octane booster, being the safest for your car and it's the cheapest... ~28 cents per ounce when bought direct and in quantity. The latter boosts octane ~5.5 points when mixed 2 oz/gal. That's only $5.60 per 10 galons. What about Progressive Direct Injection of Tetraethyl Lead? Wouldn't that be the unltimate? High Octane Boost and CHEAP!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Well, been covered. John Force said it the other day. Nitromethane is for racing, alcohol is for drinking and gas is for getting to the race! The ultimate is obviously Nitromethane, even when mixed with alcohol provides tremendous power!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Massively toxic substance. There is really no safe way to handle it. Google it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 Well' date=' been covered. John Force said it the other day. Nitromethane is for racing, alcohol is for drinking and gas is for getting to the race! The ultimate is obviously Nitromethane, even when mixed with alcohol provides tremendous power!!![/quote'] I'm not looking for bone-crunching power... just a way to increase performance, handle higher CR and Nitrous without pinging. This is for street/strip. I'll look for John Force's thread. Thanks :^) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 Massively toxic substance. There is really no safe way to handle it. Google it. I wonder why they sell the stuff to the general public? I'll check it out. Thanks!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-Dreamer Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 I wonder why they sell the stuff to the general public? I'll check it out. Thanks!! I believe Pop N Wood was referring to Nitromethane. The EPA doesn't want to see any leaded fuels on public highways, but then again the government doesn't want to see modified cars on the highways either! Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNeedForZ Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 I think he was talking about TEL. Pure TEL is highly toxic. It exists in leaded gasoline only in diluted form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 I believe Pop N Wood was referring to Nitromethane. The EPA doesn't want to see any leaded fuels on public highways' date=' but then again the government doesn't want to see modified cars on the highways either! Mark[/quote'] Gee whiz... the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know. I don't even know what nitromethane is... another "Giggle" search is in order:rolleyesg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 I think he was talking about TEL. Pure TEL is highly toxic. It exists in leaded gasoline only in diluted form. I should have realize it was too good to be true. I really wasn't thinking about the environment... a truly short-sighted and "stoopid" thing. It's just that I received my car yesterday with problems the seller... um... didn't reveal... I can understand missing the pinging issue though, not being loud and not the "clatter" type of ping. However, it's definitely happening. I have yet to adjust the timing advance... but I think it's already too low because it doesn't "feel right". Does this make any sense? I think the CR is too high for 93 octane. So I either need to decrease CR or find a way to safely/responsibly/CHEAPLY increase octane to at least 95. Given the "safely/responsibly/CHEAPLY" constraints, Is nitromethane the way to go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNeedForZ Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 Given the "safely/responsibly/CHEAPLY" constraints, Is nitromethane the way to go? For surpressing detonation? no it will make it worse. But for ultimate power nitromethane is what they use(top fuel dragster, top fuel = 95%nitromethane) It is not safe neither, it is an explosive than can be detonated. it can combust in oxygen-free environment and produce carbon monoxide in the exhaust which cause fatigue/sleepiness and then kills. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitromethane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 What are the specifics of your car? I used ocatane boosters with my 240 to suppress mild pinging when I first got it. The owners manual recommended 95 octane so thought that was just the way it was going to be. Finally for some reason I checked the SU throttle shaft bushings for vacuum leaks and discoverd they were shot. Put on a set of new carbs (dual webers in my case) and the pinging went away. Was just running too lean off idle. If you have no vacuum leaks, there are ways to lower your static compression, or even water injection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 Massively toxic substance. There is really no safe way to handle it. Google it. Yeah, those "other" chemicals are totally safe and available at the grocery store, right next to palmolive dish soap.... The amount of HP increase that your going to realize with additives is minimal and IMO not going to be practical as a daily all the time usage type of thing. If you dispute that post some dyno charts showing the big increases. A fuel change from gas to alcohol or nitro/alcohol is significant in terms of Hp gains! I guess that is why there are commercially sold alcohol injection and water injection kits. What your going to try to save in lieu of buying race gas is minimal for the amount of gasoline and time, which chould include your trips to various stores to purchase said chemical that your using trying to figure out how not to pay $6.80/gallon for C-16 or $2/gallon for methanol. Actually I just bought a 55 gallon drum of C16 for $340, so that's about $6.18/gallon. Locally it's $9.80/gallon for 111 octane VP. You either have a street car or a race car, it comes down to that. ZGAD, Scottie and others have both but they don't run race gas and race tune on the street everyday either. The cars in question are also not their daily driver that they depend on to go to work in everyday. I'm going to have the same and my greddy profec EO-1 will store a boost level for pump gas and one for race gas on my TT350, it's just that simple. But if your really in the quest, maybe you forgot about mixing race gas with premium unleaded, instead of all those other concoctions. The real gains are to be found in the engine build/modification area if your going to stick with pump gas, because there is a limit to what you can boost or compress pump gas, with cylinder head(s) being the number one area of improvement. There is no magical chemical additive that you can buy and use on a regular basis, run everyday, and be safe with chemical handling and/or damage effects to your fuel system with prolonged use, with the exception of race gas. Methanol IMO requires more maintenance and is not trouble free. If there were such a chemical, you would be buying it not wondering how to "get it done" and "if it will work". But on the other hand give it a try and tell us how much money it took and if it works or not. I'll stick with race gas and methanol, not taking chances with detonation ruining my motor cause it didn't work or I didn't put enough in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavyZ Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 ...It's just that I received my car yesterday with problems the seller... um... didn't reveal... I can understand missing the pinging issue though' date=' not being loud and not the "clatter" type of ping. However, it's definitely happening...[/quote'] Take the time to diagnose what's happening with the car (it may take some time since there could be 2 or more things here). Have you tried a compression test as well to make sure that the "clatter" isn't extreme detonation from super high compression pistons on cat-pee gas? I suppose you'll confirm if the noise is mechanical or what--keep us updated. Is this a racing motor or something for the street? Is it a V8Z (I'm assuming it is)? Davy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 For surpressing detonation? no it will make it worse. But for ultimate power nitromethane is what they use(top fuel dragster' date=' top fuel = 95%nitromethane) It is not safe neither, it is an explosive than can be detonated. it can combust in oxygen-free environment and produce carbon monoxide in the exhaust which cause fatigue/sleepiness and then kills. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitromethane That's not for me... so I'm still looking for a solution... something better than double head gaskets and cheaper than head work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 What are the specifics of your car? I used ocatane boosters with my 240 to suppress mild pinging when I first got it. The owners manual recommended 95 octane so thought that was just the way it was going to be. Finally for some reason I checked the SU throttle shaft bushings for vacuum leaks and discoverd they were shot. Put on a set of new carbs (dual webers in my case) and the pinging went away. Was just running too lean off idle. If you have no vacuum leaks' date=' there are ways to lower your static compression, or even water injection.[/quote'] I don't yet have exact specifics but it has Performer RPM aluminum heads (unmodified?), Performer EPS intake, Edelbrock 650 with vac secondaries, typical shorty headers, 2.5 inch exhaust with glasspacks(?), seller's ad stated 10.5 hyper pistons, cam has a lope but is useable with a stock auto converter. A vacuum leak, eh? Hmm... the rubber vac hoses are brittle and the PCV gromett on the valve cover is just a bit loose, but I haven't heard any hissing. I'll replace those and see what happens. Maybe my brake booster will start working too:grin: If the hoses and PCV grommet don't help, I'll try another carb. If these don't work, I'll look into the possibility of water injection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-Dreamer Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 Tetraethyl Lead IS the major component in leaded race gas that makes it RACE GAS!!! Yes there is unleaded race gas on the market, but I've never seen it with an octane rating much over 100. Foe example, Sunoco 260 GT Plus is rated at 104 using (R+M)/2. Leaded racing gas is typically available between 110-116 (R+M)/2. How much octane does a given engine need? This would be the better question! For example, if you own a 60's era muscle car with say a 12-1 compression ratio, you better run at least 100 or better. But what if your running say a modern aluminum race head, long rod V8 with a 13.5-1 compression ratio with full ignition timing? Anyone have an answer? (This is what I want to run in my weekend warrior). Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 Yeah' date=' those "other" chemicals are totally safe and available at the grocery store, right next to palmolive dish soap.... The amount of HP increase that your going to realize with additives is minimal and IMO not going to be practical as a daily all the time usage type of thing. If you dispute that post some dyno charts showing the big increases. A fuel change from gas to alcohol or nitro/alcohol is significant in terms of Hp gains! I guess that is why there are commercially sold alcohol injection and water injection kits. What your going to try to save in lieu of buying race gas is minimal for the amount of gasoline and time, which chould include your trips to various stores to purchase said chemical that your using trying to figure out how not to pay $6.80/gallon for C-16 or $2/gallon for methanol. Actually I just bought a 55 gallon drum of C16 for $340, so that's about $6.18/gallon. Locally it's $9.80/gallon for 111 octane VP. You either have a street car or a race car, it comes down to that. ZGAD, Scottie and others have both but they don't run race gas and race tune on the street everyday either. The cars in question are also not their daily driver that they depend on to go to work in everyday. I'm going to have the same and my greddy profec EO-1 will store a boost level for pump gas and one for race gas on my TT350, it's just that simple. But if your really in the quest, maybe you forgot about mixing race gas with premium unleaded, instead of all those other concoctions. The real gains are to be found in the engine build/modification area if your going to stick with pump gas, because there is a limit to what you can boost or compress pump gas, with cylinder head(s) being the number one area of improvement. There is no magical chemical additive that you can buy and use on a regular basis, run everyday, and be safe with chemical handling and/or damage effects to your fuel system with prolonged use, with the exception of race gas. Methanol IMO requires more maintenance and is not trouble free. If there were such a chemical, you would be buying it not wondering how to "get it done" and "if it will work". But on the other hand give it a try and tell us how much money it took and if it works or not. I'll stick with race gas and methanol, not taking chances with detonation ruining my motor cause it didn't work or I didn't put enough in.[/quote'] If replacing the vac hoses and/or carb doesn't help, I'll try water injection... distilled water is cheap. I don't want to do much to this engine until later when I can afford to really do it right. And then, I may opt to swap for an LSx. Either way, it'll still be fairly tame compared to many others. Overall, I just want this car to put most "Stangs" to shame:grin: I only heard very slight pinging for a couple of seconds today, but I never really stepped on the gas for any length of time. It's really very slight and only occasional. For now I just want to tame the ping before it kills my motor. I don't know where to buy race gas here but I'll search for someplace (handy?). I don't want to drive 30 miles out of my way to buy race gas though:o You said, "...give it a try..." Do you mean the Tetraethyl Lead? I've decided against that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 Take the time to diagnose what's happening with the car (it may take some time since there could be 2 or more things here). Have you tried a compression test as well to make sure that the "clatter" isn't extreme detonation from super high compression pistons on cat-pee gas? I suppose you'll confirm if the noise is mechanical or what--keep us updated. Is this a racing motor or something for the street? Is it a V8Z (I'm assuming it is)? Davy It's been nearly thirty years since I've messed with a performance engine and I've forgotten many things, but the folks on this forum are bringng me up to speed. THANK YOU!!! I'll look for vac leaks, rejet or replace the carb, test CR, then try H2O or alcohol injection. I can tell this motor has a fairly high CR. There is no mistaking the sharp snappy popping sound from the exhaust and the engine stops spinning VERY quickly when switched off... hardly any wind down at all. The noise is definitely not mechanical. It's ping alright. It's a street motor. This is a V8 Z that's re-bodied as a Ferrari 250 GTO... the old Alpha 1 kit car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNeedForZ Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 Tetraethyl Lead IS the major component in leaded race gas that makes it RACE GAS!!! I am not sure about it being the "major" component as it is really diluted in leaded Gasoline, like 1/1200. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-Dreamer Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 I am not sure about it being the "major" component as it is really diluted in leaded Gasoline, like 1/1200. OK, it's the major antiknock component is leaded race gas. Sheeez... Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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