Andrew Bayley Posted March 12, 2001 Share Posted March 12, 2001 First of all, let me give you a little background on my problem. There has always been a small leak coming from somewhere in the transmission. The really weird part was the fact that it only happened when the weather was hot (over 80 degrees F) and/or humid outside. Every time the weather got this way, there would be a nice half quart of fluid on the floor. Not good eh? Well, at first I thought it was the pan gasket. Replaced that and the problem still continued. Next, I replaced the dipstick o-ring. Nope, still leaked. Finally, I checked the cooling lines and TV cable housing. Neither one showed any signs of leaks. Now comes the fun stuff. Every now and then at the track, I would notice a little trail of smoke following me through the traps. No biggie, it didn't last long and the trans still felt tight as ever. I always thought it was simply my front main seal going out. Then one night, while laying a little smack down on a heavily modified mustang , I noticed a VERY LARGE cloud of smoke following me down the road (it would have really sucked if I had lost...) Again, I just thought that it was my front main seal. The whole time this leaking was happening, the trans was tight, and the converter was loose. Everything worked like it was supposed to. Here comes the death blow. While on a desolate country drive back in September, I decide to "get on it" through second gear. About a mile later, I look back to see a smoke trail of biblical proportions (yeah, it was huge). So I pull over to check it out and sure enough, it was trans juice. There was no longer a little leak. This time fluid was coming out at a steady stream. I drove the Z back to my cottage which was about 20 miles away. The whole time, the trans acted like it was supposed to. Of course, I didn't get on it any more, but it shifted like it normally did at partial throttle and the converter seemed to function normally. So it's a bad pump, right? Well, that's what I would have initially though. When I pulled out the trans and observed everything, I couldn't find any obvious leak from the external of the trans (even the front main seal). So for the sake of science, I put the converter on the input shaft of the transmission and spun it a few times. Two thing happened when I spun the converter. One: fluid almost immediately started to leak from the seal area. This doesn't sound like much, but since my converter was bone dry I was concerned. Second: there was A LOT of play in the converter once it was "seated" correctly on the input shaft. I'm pretty sure that was simply because the converter was empty, but I'm still concerned. I'm just praying that my converter isn't fried!!! I'm 90% sure that my pump is shot. I'm not sure what exactly it is inside the pump that let go, but I'm hoping that's all it is. Just before I shut the motor off for good, I did notice a slight knock coming from the transmission. Something was moving around. When I pulled the trans, I notice that two of the converter to flex plate bolts were finger tight. I'm hoping this was all the knocking noise was. I do not want to throw down another $400 for a converter. A few hundred just for the trans rebuild kit is already a tight stretch. Please, if you have any idea, suggestions, or comments, feel free to float them my way. I'm starting to get a little concerned over here. -Andy ------------------ My very slow Web Site Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 12, 2001 Share Posted March 12, 2001 Hello Andrew: It has been a few years since I last rebuilded a transmission, but after reading your letter it is obvious that you are having problems with the front bearing. This one is inside of the front pump and it keeps the converter aligned. As it wears out the movement of the converter will damage the front seal. Hope this is of some help. quote: Originally posted by Andrew Bayley: First of all, let me give you a little background on my problem. There has always been a small leak coming from somewhere in the transmission. The really weird part was the fact that it only happened when the weather was hot (over 80 degrees F) and/or humid outside. Every time the weather got this way, there would be a nice half quart of fluid on the floor. Not good eh? Well, at first I thought it was the pan gasket. Replaced that and the problem still continued. Next, I replaced the dipstick o-ring. Nope, still leaked. Finally, I checked the cooling lines and TV cable housing. Neither one showed any signs of leaks. Now comes the fun stuff. Every now and then at the track, I would notice a little trail of smoke following me through the traps. No biggie, it didn't last long and the trans still felt tight as ever. I always thought it was simply my front main seal going out. Then one night, while laying a little smack down on a heavily modified mustang , I noticed a VERY LARGE cloud of smoke following me down the road (it would have really sucked if I had lost...) Again, I just thought that it was my front main seal. The whole time this leaking was happening, the trans was tight, and the converter was loose. Everything worked like it was supposed to. Here comes the death blow. While on a desolate country drive back in September, I decide to "get on it" through second gear. About a mile later, I look back to see a smoke trail of biblical proportions (yeah, it was huge). So I pull over to check it out and sure enough, it was trans juice. There was no longer a little leak. This time fluid was coming out at a steady stream. I drove the Z back to my cottage which was about 20 miles away. The whole time, the trans acted like it was supposed to. Of course, I didn't get on it any more, but it shifted like it normally did at partial throttle and the converter seemed to function normally. So it's a bad pump, right? Well, that's what I would have initially though. When I pulled out the trans and observed everything, I couldn't find any obvious leak from the external of the trans (even the front main seal). So for the sake of science, I put the converter on the input shaft of the transmission and spun it a few times. Two thing happened when I spun the converter. One: fluid almost immediately started to leak from the seal area. This doesn't sound like much, but since my converter was bone dry I was concerned. Second: there was A LOT of play in the converter once it was "seated" correctly on the input shaft. I'm pretty sure that was simply because the converter was empty, but I'm still concerned. I'm just praying that my converter isn't fried!!! I'm 90% sure that my pump is shot. I'm not sure what exactly it is inside the pump that let go, but I'm hoping that's all it is. Just before I shut the motor off for good, I did notice a slight knock coming from the transmission. Something was moving around. When I pulled the trans, I notice that two of the converter to flex plate bolts were finger tight. I'm hoping this was all the knocking noise was. I do not want to throw down another $400 for a converter. A few hundred just for the trans rebuild kit is already a tight stretch. Please, if you have any idea, suggestions, or comments, feel free to float them my way. I'm starting to get a little concerned over here. -Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Bayley Posted March 12, 2001 Author Share Posted March 12, 2001 Dang it! I meant to post this under the "Driveline" section. Pete or Mike, could one of you move this thread for me? Raul, Thanks for the info. I was just thinking that it was a seal in the pump that let go. Never thought it might be a bearing issue. I've never torn apart an automatic transmission before, so this is all new stuff to me. Where is this bearing located (general location)? -Thanks -Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 13, 2001 Share Posted March 13, 2001 Andrew: Take a look at the neck on the converter, and measure the distance from the seal mark to the end of the neck. Then look inside of the pump where the neck fits in the pump and you should see a bearing inside of it, within that distance (it looks like a camshaft bearing). It may be a good idea to take the pump and the converter to a shop to check the clearances, if you can't measure it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John C Posted March 13, 2001 Share Posted March 13, 2001 Andrew, Your loose converter bolts will definitely give you a rattle and it could be hard on your pump,bushing and seal. Also check the flywheel around the crank bolts for cracks.Another place you can leak fluid from is the gasket between the pump and trans case.As for your converter I know they will rattle some when shaken,but take it to a good trans shop and have them check it and your pump . John C P.S. Remove your trans pan and check for debris.A small amount is normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Bayley Posted March 13, 2001 Author Share Posted March 13, 2001 Thanks for the help guys. I've pretty much concluded that my converter is O.K. (thank god!) I flushed it out with mineral spirits then pressure checked for crack leaks. Everything seemed fine, all the movements seemed to be within clearances. I got a feeling my problem is somewhere in the pump. I'm thinking the O-ring that seals the pump assembly to the case has eaten itself. Small problem, but I'm probably going to have to pull the valve body to get the pump assembly out. Arrgh!@#$ Oh well, that's life I guess. -Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Johnson Posted March 14, 2001 Share Posted March 14, 2001 I recently had a strange lesking problem with my 700 which I can share. Mine would leak after hard driving and decelerating. After removing the trans and suspecting oil pump leakage I found it was coming out the vent. Some research showed 2 problems with leakage on the 700. 1st is under hard breaking the oil sloshes out the vent. The repair is use of a later model gasket that helps restrict the vent hole. The second issue may be more in line with your problem. The oil return line from the converter seal area is too small and partially restricted by the converter seal. ATSG manual shows how to enlarge this hole to insure oil and pressure do not build up at the seal area. Good luck [This message has been edited by Rick Johnson (edited March 13, 2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Bayley Posted March 14, 2001 Author Share Posted March 14, 2001 Good suggestions Rick. I checked the vent tube intially (sorry, should have stated that earlier) and there were no signs of leakage up there. Also, I did check the oil return passage in the pump housing (near the converter seal). Everything looked A.O.K. As I was reading my truty Haynes manual, they said that some of the earlier 700's had the smaller passages that should be opened up to 1/4 inch. However, I was able to pull the pump out tonight and I did make one discovery (you nailed this one John!!!). There is a large ring style papaer gasket that goes between the pump base (the side that is inside the trans) and the trans case itself. After I pulled the valve body off, I noticed that this gasket had slipped off in an area about 3 - 4 inchs long. Here is my hypothesis: The gasket was slowly slipping, causing slight leakage (is that even a word )upon heavy acceleration. As I drove the car more and more, the gasket continued to slip until it eventually slid entirely out of it's seated position. Once the gasket had completely slid out, a passage was created for high pressure fluid from the pump to leak between the pump and trans case, then out onto the converter. I'm still not 100% sold on this theory of mine, but I totally disassembled most everything in the transmission tonight and this was the ONLY item that didn't look right. Everything else (gaskets, o-rings, bushings, etc...) looked fine. I'm going to reassemble the pump with new o-rings just to be safe, then reinstall the pump. I'm still on the fence over wether or not to replace all the clutches... it just sounds and looks like a pretty large undertaking. Alos, new clutches and such will run me a few more bucks than a $2 pump gasket. Thanks again everyone for your input. Keep this board number 1. -Andy ------------------ Andrew's LAnd of Z and Honey [This message has been edited by Andrew Bayley (edited March 13, 2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Bayley Posted March 14, 2001 Author Share Posted March 14, 2001 doh, stupid signature. Let's see if this works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Bayley Posted March 14, 2001 Author Share Posted March 14, 2001 Nope, let's try again. ------------------ "But I don't sit idly by, I'm planning a big surprise." Andrew's Land of Z and Honey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Bayley Posted March 14, 2001 Author Share Posted March 14, 2001 ...third times a charm! ------------------ "But I don't sit idly by, I'm planning a big surprise." Andrew's Land of Z and Honey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John C Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 Andrew, I'm glad to hear it's something simple.How long before your up and running? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Shasteen Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Andrew Bayley: ...causing slight leakage (is that even a word)....Andy Andy, I believe the word is derived from Latin & its correct term is: "Extremous Fluidous Leakous!" (FYI-always trying to help). Kevin, (Yes,Still a Inliner) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Johnson Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 A gasket out of position must account for something - was ir ripped - how did it move - were the bolts loose. My trans had burnt 3-4 clutches, forward clutches, and 2-4 band. I upgraded the 3-4 clutch from 6 fiber plates to 9 using the Alto Kit. I also had room for an additional fiber on the forward clutch. The clutch fiber kits are really cheap if you buy them from a place like Cal Tex. They are having a special this month on 700 parts. Might not be bad insurance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Bayley Posted March 16, 2001 Author Share Posted March 16, 2001 Rick, I got the transmission from a yard and I've got a feeling that it was recently rebuilt when I got it. I've only put maybe 5000 - 6000 miles on it since I installed it. I'm saying this because everything inside the transmission looks brand new. The bands look perfect, I can't see any wear in the clutches and I found no debris in the trans pan (of course, I removed and cleaned it when I first installed it). The only thing I can think of, is when the trans was rebuilt, someone didn't properly install the gasket. I know, I know, I know... I can't imagine how else this would have happened All the pump bolt appeared to be tightened to spec and the pump took the normal amount of "motivation" to get it out. ...wierd! John, My goal is to have everything running again by April 1st. Realistically, this is a long shot. I still have to install my fuel cell, repair my broken rear strut, install my CV's, and f weld up an exhaust for myself. A lot of my friends are going racing on "opening day" the first of April. I should have the motor and trans done by then, but I don't know about the exhaust and fuel cell. If worse comes to worse, I'll just use the old tank once again and trailer the car to the track and run open headers ( ). Why not... maybe then I'll actually be able to hear my car over everyone else's. Oh, and Kevin... I believe the correct term is: Murphyus Lawieus Maximus -Andy ------------------ "But I don't sit idly by, I'm planning a big surprise." Andrew's Land of Z and Honey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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