Wilson_WWSC Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Hi, I have a chevy 327 with a turbo 350. It is mounted not like the JTR conversion. The engine is not close to the firewall at all. I would like to get a 700r4 or 2004r, which is better? I would like to know specs that i need if i have a comp cam installed. Will 1000$ do the full conversion? Ive seen some 700r4's on ebay that advertise 500hp (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/700R4-CHEVY-TRANSMISSION-2WD-or-4x4-HEAVY-DUTY_W0QQitemZ170009834565QQihZ007QQcategoryZ33727QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) Any suggestions? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimtastic Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 i would go with the 200r4. better gear spread from 1st to 2nd, plus there is less power loss too the wheels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilson_WWSC Posted July 25, 2006 Author Share Posted July 25, 2006 where can i get a 2004r that will fit in my budget and still be good for my car? thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A. G. Olphart Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 where can i get a 2004r that will fit in my budget and still be good for my car? thanks Wilson, you have asked a couple questions which are basically unanswerable based of the information you have provided, and they really belonged in the drivetrain forum. Slimtastic's observation on the gear ratios is generally accepted, but the stock 200R4 transmissions don't usually hold up well with hard useage/ big power (nor do most of them shift for beans). I don't know of any well built performance versions available for $1000. If your engine remains basically stock, a good rebuild of a later 200R4 with a shift kit, steel pump rings and a big 2nd gear servo may do fine. Here is a forum dedicated primarily to the 200R4: http://turbobuick.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=12 A lot of good reading there, and solid (if not cheap) transmissions available through the vendors. I think PTS Extreme is in your area. You mentioned that you plan to install a cam... Your engine's compression ratio may limit/ help determine your camshaft options, and the RPM range of the cam you choose should be considered in picking the torque converter's stall speed. Everything is related. Good luck, welcome to the board, use the search function, find the proper forums, and be happy! <> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilson_WWSC Posted July 26, 2006 Author Share Posted July 26, 2006 Hey guys, thanks for the help so far. I'm looking to get a 700r4 cuz the 200 is just too expensive. How much modification do i need to do to my 240 to fit the 700r4 in? How would this one do? TCC Gold HAMMER Built rock-solid. Strong and durable. Built to withstand the stress of towing, high mileage, and heavy-duty applications. Holds up to 500 HP. COULD WITHSTAND THE HEAT ON THE ON THE STRIP....FOR ALL THE RACERS... Unit includes the following components and updates: Transtex master kit with Borg-Warner Clutches New Kevlar band New teflon sealing rings New gaskets New Seal Power filter 29 Element Sprag Blocked off accumulators Stage Two Transgo Shift Kit Aluminum Corvette Servo Hardened Sun Shell (The Beast) 500 Boost Valve Hardened Pump Rings [*] [*]All units are specifically modified to eliminate weak points and produce a stronger transmission. Units torqued to specifications TCC builds 700R4 with time - tested technology to make it even faster and stronger. and better!! Knowledge comes from experience - Make it work for you! [*]All trans are 100% tested and fully guaranteed for 1year. [*]We stand behind our work and have for over 25years. [*]Call Chris regarding any installation questions at 954-968-6077 [*]Build it right the first time! [*]Let TCC go to work for you! Please let me know if this is worth 700 bux. its on ebay, item number 170009834565 Thanks, Wilson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A. G. Olphart Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 Wilson, I can't speak to the issue of fitment-- I've never done it. Have you searched for 700R4? As to the value of ebay engines and transmissions: I'm a little leery of this type item as ebay's feedback system lends itself more towards things which may be readily visually inspected upon arrival. Chances are a person doesn't know the quality of rebuilt engines or transmissions until about 6 months down the road. Are they still running?... well? I don't know if blocking accumulators is standard practice in 700R4s or not. I can't see GM spending the money to have them there if they didn't fill a need. Maybe Jake will help out. Go here to see what a reputable high performance rebuilder does with the 700R4 at various levels: http://ckperformance.com/select.html <> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeshoe Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 Totally blocking the accumulators on a 700 is not a good idea. A 700 with a "Vette" 093 servo and a mild valve body kit will shift to 2nd HARD at throttle. I coached a guy who has never done any trans work through a Transgo Reprogramming kit install about 2 weeks ago, he went with the firmest shift settings and is now wanting to back it out a bit as the 1-2 is VERY firm. Blocking the accumulators for harsh shifts is asking for hard parts failure. I wouldn't buy a transmission off Ebay unless it was a local business that you can do warrantee work with. A good 700-R4 would cost at least $1000. I quoted a rebuild for $1000 last night actually, it requires over $550 in parts at my cost to build one properly. This should give you an idea of what you will be getting for some of the prices on Ebay... $200 for a rebuild kit with good clutches and the updated 3-4 clutch kit. $45 for a good sun shell $35 for a 13 vane pump kit $30 worth of TV boost valves $10 for good pump rings $75 for a valve body kit $25 for a good band $4 for the filter $20 for the TV cable $20 for the buishing kit $20 for the thrust washer kit plus tax...electricity for the shop, consumables, and paying for someone who KNOWS what they are doing and will do it right to put it together. You're not getting into a GOOD overdrive transmission for cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilson_WWSC Posted July 29, 2006 Author Share Posted July 29, 2006 Totally blocking the accumulators on a 700 is not a good idea.A 700 with a "Vette" 093 servo and a mild valve body kit will shift to 2nd HARD at throttle. I coached a guy who has never done any trans work through a Transgo Reprogramming kit install about 2 weeks ago' date=' he went with the firmest shift settings and is now wanting to back it out a bit as the 1-2 is VERY firm. [/quote'] Thanks for the help so far. What exactly does a very firm shift mean? Is it too jerky/hard, as in dropping the clutch in at 5000rpms in a manual car? Also, could someone give me an exact list of parts that should be added/modded on a 700r4 for a v8 z? I want the tranny to last through a bunch of HP upgrades, so maybe a 500hp capable 700r4 to be safe? If anyone has used a 700r4 can you please list the parts that went on the tranny? Thanks, Wilson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeshoe Posted July 29, 2006 Share Posted July 29, 2006 Thanks for the help so far. What exactly does a very firm shift mean? Is it too jerky/hard, as in dropping the clutch in at 5000rpms in a manual car? Also, could someone give me an exact list of parts that should be added/modded on a 700r4 for a v8 z? I want the tranny to last through a bunch of HP upgrades, so maybe a 500hp capable 700r4 to be safe? If anyone has used a 700r4 can you please list the parts that went on the tranny? Thanks, Wilson Th parts are listed in my post... 500 hp and a 700 don't go together well, if that is your ultimate goal, use a different trans, 200-4r or 4L80. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilson_WWSC Posted July 31, 2006 Author Share Posted July 31, 2006 how about 400hp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpyvette Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 just some info Ive seen a whole lot of vettes with performance BUILT 700R4 transmissions that were TOAST/JUNK/BUSTED, neither the 700r4 or the 200r4 are designed to handle more than 350 ft lbs in stock condition. the aftermarket parts in both transmissions can improve the strength but youll never get to near the strength a 4L80E/th400 potentially has simply because the SIZE LIMITS inside the case and the total CLUTCH and GEAR SIZE in the 700r4 or the 200r4 is significantly smaller HEAT/SHOCK LOADS and EXCESSIVE TORQUE LOADS KILL TRANSMISSIONS, NOT HORSEPOWER a correctly built 4L80E can handle 800 hp/600ft lbs while a well built 200r4 or 700R4 is working on the upper edge at 400-450 ft lbs even with aftermarket parts any place that advertizes a HP rate is B.S.ing you, look the formula for hp is tq x rpm divided by 5252=horsepower so 350 ft lbs x 3500rpm /5252=233hp 350 ft lbs x 7000rpm/5252= 466hp 600 ft lbs at 2500rpm/5252=285hp now the last engine has far less hp than the second, yet it will twist up and spit out the remains of a 700r4 almost instantly while the second example will last for years if a good trans cooler is used Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeshoe Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 just some infoIve seen a whole lot of vettes with performance BUILT 700R4 transmissions that were TOAST/JUNK/BUSTED' date=' neither the 700r4 or the 200r4 are designed to handle more than 350 ft lbs in stock condition. the aftermarket parts in both transmissions can improve the strength but youll never get to near the strength a 4L80E/th400 potentially has simply because the SIZE LIMITS inside the case and the total CLUTCH and GEAR SIZE in the 700r4 or the 200r4 is significantly smaller HEAT/SHOCK LOADS and EXCESSIVE TORQUE LOADS KILL TRANSMISSIONS, NOT HORSEPOWER a correctly built 4L80E can handle 800 hp/600ft lbs while a well built 200r4 or 700R4 is working on the upper edge at 400-450 ft lbs even with aftermarket parts any place that advertizes a HP rate is B.S.ing you, look the formula for hp is tq x rpm divided by 5252=horsepower so 350 ft lbs x 3500rpm /5252=233hp 350 ft lbs x 7000rpm/5252= 466hp 600 ft lbs at 2500rpm/5252=285hp now the last engine has far less hp than the second, yet it will twist up and spit out the remains of a 700r4 almost instantly while the second example will last for years if a good trans cooler is used[/quote'] This is not entirely true, first a 200-4R has a greater capability in modified form to handle power due to its design. It needs an upgraded forward drum, better servo and band for 2nd gear, some internal mods to increase apply area for the direct clutches, and with nothing more than properly built and calibrated it will fairly easily handle 600 lb/ft or HP. A 700 has some inherent design weaknesses that haven't been corrected by the aftermarket at this time to make it live RELIABLY above the 450 lb/ft level IMO. (Disclaimer...there are plenty of vendors who sell 700s who will sya otherwise, but do the research and you'll notice that many people are experiencing what grumpy has mentioned...) That said, the quotes of HP at a certain rpm for a given torque doesn't show a complete picture. We are dealing with mostly V8 performance engines, the last engine listed to make 600 lb ft at 2500 (very possible with a large cube motor or a boosted one) would have 285 HP at 2500 rpm, but would also have much more at 5500 rpm.. Most of the engines we are talking about will not produce peak torque or HP at the 2500 rpm range. We aren't dealing with a Caterpillar diesel here... So quoting a HP rating for a transmission isn't totally without merit, although I believe a torque rating is more accurate. Another killer of transmissions is RPM, power input into the trans doesn't even necessarily cause broken parts, design of the internals and calibration can cause broken parts when combined with RPM. All automatics have various internals that must come to an abrupt halt on a shift, or near instantaneous acceleration to catch up to engine rpm.] You could have an engine with very low output ( use a small 4 cylinder ) yet that could rev to say 7500 rpm. Using a TH400/TH350 example at 7500 rpm a stock TH400 or TH350 would very likely break the intermediate sprag or race, centrifugal force would cause the snap rings on the direct drum to come loose (and sun gear on the TH350), and the direct clutches would centrifugally apply in low gear causing drag and possibly burnt clutches. This little 4 cylinder might not make a lot of torque but could still cause a failure. A 700 actually has more clutch area for 3rd gear (and 4th) than a TH400, yet these clutches are one of the more failure prone areas of the 700...(they are also the most failure prone clutch in a TH400/TH350 but are easily remedied, whereas the 700 isn't). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilson_WWSC Posted July 31, 2006 Author Share Posted July 31, 2006 wow, thanks for all the time you guys put in to this, i greatly appreciate the knowledge. So, should i get a turbo 400? that has 4 speed/overdrive right? Thats what i mainly need because i will be driving my z a lot on the freeway (not very smart of me, using a v8). the reason i was leaning towards the 700r4 was because i hear a lot of people using it, the 200-4r is out of my budget, i have a turbo 350 (dont like 3 speed, and i only reach top mph of 95, that is going over redline), and i dont know much about turbo 400's. so what should i do? how should a th400 be built, and what do i need to do to make the th400 fit in my z? Thanks again, wilson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A. G. Olphart Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 A built turbo 400 (3 speed) with a gear vendor's overdrive unit would be plenty stout, but I'm not sure of the combined unit's size. Grumpy mentioned the 4L80E; Really strong, but they will be pricy as they are relatively new and need aftermarket parts to operate (the 'E' signifies electronic shifting-- controlled by the native vehicle's computer). They are also LARGE. Physically, the 200-4R is the best fit for a Z; the stock units just need a little help. For a freeway cruiser, a 700 should work fine (there are thousands on the road every day). Ultimate strength only comes into play with big horsepower or Suburban diesels. If you need to race, you have to pay. <> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpyvette Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 http://members.aol.com/powerrslid/thm2004r.html http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/transmission/200rebld.html http://www.tciauto.com/tech_info/converter_dims.htm http://www.tciauto.com/tech_info/trans_dims.htm http://www.tciauto.com/tech_info/gear_ratios.htm http://www.tciauto.com/tech_info/trans_life_expectancy.htm this may help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeshoe Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 A built turbo 400 (3 speed) with a gear vendor's overdrive unit would be plenty stout' date=' but I'm not sure of the combined unit's size. Grumpy mentioned the 4L80E; Really strong, but they will be pricy as they are relatively new and need aftermarket parts to operate (the 'E' signifies electronic shifting-- controlled by the native vehicle's computer). They are also LARGE. Physically, the 200-4R is the best fit for a Z; the stock units just need a little help. For a freeway cruiser, a 700 should work fine (there are thousands on the road every day). Ultimate strength only comes into play with big horsepower or Suburban diesels. If you need to race, you have to pay. <>[/quote'] A 400 and GV would be stout but I can do a 4L80E for less, and the 4L80E is a better option IMO, better OD ratio, lockup converter, smaller package, etc. You can also do a full manual 4L80. No electronics. 100% agree that the 200 is the best fit. Also agree the 700 will work fine in a cruiser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeshoe Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 200-4R, TH400 and 4L80 comparison. A pic is worth a thousand words... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeshoe Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 Also of interest, a short shaft TH350 weighs almost exactly 125 lbs sans converter. A short TH400 weighs about 10 lbs more, right at 135 lbs. A 4L80E weighs 178 lbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
231Z Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Wilson, Should you decide to consider a 200r4, make sure it has a BRF valve body (found in the 84-87 Turbo Buicks). Despite some of the chatter on this board about the hp limits of the 200r4, you will never exceed the capability. There are several guys in the Nor Cal Turbo Buick Club that have reached/exceeded 800hp with equal/more torque in a 3500lb vehicle and run the 200r4's without fail. With the weight savings and an independent rear you won't hurt a 200r4. Talk to Bruce Toelle at Performance Transmission in Sacto area (PTS Extreme). He makes all the billet and hardened parts for these trannies. Good luck Tyson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeshoe Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 The BRF valve body is one of the preferred units. I have an extra BRF valve body if you have trouble locating one (they are somewhat rare). The CZ valve body from a Monte Carlo SS is supposedly better for a NA application as it has a little less active kickdown but the same WOT shift points. There are other good valve bodies, and there are valve bodies that can be made to work, but it is less of a headache to get a decent WOT and part throttle shift point using one of the performance valve bodies. The 200-4R is WAY more capable of surviving power than a 700-R4... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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