QWKDTSN Posted May 13, 2001 Share Posted May 13, 2001 I'm curious about the strut spacers advertised in MSA and VB catalogs. I've seen these for a while and was always under the impression that they were for use with stock length strut housings only. Would there be a pronounced difference with and without these, even if my struts are sectioned? I'd really like to kill my bumpsteer as much as possible. The struts are sectioned 2". Another question - where are you guys getting your camber plates? I'm looking for a set that's cheap and sturdy. I saw a set at the MSA autocross that I really liked (Mike Kelly, you saw them too) but they run $125-150 per corner.. that's a bit too rich for me right now... Final question - I haven't tried it yet, but I was thinking about the adjustments available on my Illuminas. I've been running them set at number 3 front and rear and haven't really made any changes. Would my ride really benifit from setting them down to 1 or 2 while just cruising around town, or would having the stiff springs still make the ride rough? I assume that the ride will, at the least, be bouncy. As much as experience as I've had, this compression/rebound stuff still boggles my mind.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted May 13, 2001 Share Posted May 13, 2001 Two inches? Holy Crap! Sorry - I'm just jealous - it must be nice to live where they have smooth roads - you could never get away with that in Detroit. Anyway, check these threads, where we have beaten the bumpsteer issue to death... http://www.hybridz.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=000344 http://www.hybridz.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=000566 http://www.hybridz.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=000549 As far as strut length goes, it doesn't have that much effect on the bump steer curve itself, but it will change what part of the curve you normally use. Trouble is, the stock curve is less than desireable (generally alot less) when you lower the car. So, these discussions are still valid for you. As far as changing the shock settings, there is a good chance that the ride might become more bouncy if you go to the lower settings. Maybe not, though. Is there a reason you haven't just tried it? You'll be the best judge of whether or not it's acceptable to you. For starters, I'd recommend changing all the settings the same way, though - this should keep your base handling characteristics the most similar. [ May 13, 2001: Message edited by: TimZ ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QWKDTSN Posted May 13, 2001 Author Share Posted May 13, 2001 TimZ - Roads here aren't as good as you might think.. matter of fact, read this: "Road repair has been so neglected in San Diego that fewer than half the city's streets are in acceptable condition, according to a consultant's report. About 51 percent of the city's 3,400 miles of streets have potholes or cracking that make them unacceptable, reported Santec Consulting Inc. Councilwoman Toni Atkins, chairwoman of the Public Safety and Neighborhood Services Committee, was skeptical. She said she thought even more streets are in need of repair. "I'm not quite sure I believe it in terms of 49 percent acceptable." But I deal with it... Ross - If you could get a quality set of camber plates to me for $200 for all four corners, I'd be stoked. Would I have to cut the upper shock mounts? That's the one thing I'm worried about because so far, no cutting's been done to the body and I'd hate to make a perfectly good car (because it really is) unrestorable. And yes, I still have the matching-numbers straight six in the car, so it is potentially restorable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavyZ Posted May 13, 2001 Share Posted May 13, 2001 Sometimes I wonder where we would be without guys like Tim & Ross. At least they read the archives! With respect to the road issue. Here in Northern CA, the roads are pretty bad as well. Taxes from gasoline are supposed to be paying for roads, but it all is a crock of you-know-what. Finally they paved the main boulevard where I live! You couldn't get the rear end to hook right with all those pot holes The worst freeway bar far is the Nimitz (I-880). It's never finished and they let it get really bad before they start repaving it...I guess a few lawsuits against the city in the works gets someone to DO something about it. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted May 13, 2001 Share Posted May 13, 2001 quoteRoss - If you could get a quality set of camber plates to me for $200 for all four corners, I'd be stoked. Would I have to cut the upper shock mounts? I'd be stoked too That'd be ~+/-$200/pr. by both 'sets' I meant both left and right pair really can't see it exceeding 200/volume could drop it). I was still thinking/talking like with the machinist as theirs a few parts/pieces per side. If you'd like to design something reasonably simple allowing adjustment without modifying the tower I'm all eyes and ears Best option for you might be some adjustable control arms and TC rods or just decide what settings you want and make a fixed set of each as some do. My set is for a 280ZX/510 (same bolt pattern) but same principle applies for Z's, less strut tower room side/side with Z's but still enough I'd imagine as it's seems adequate for others. My complete setup is underneath the strut tower with caster adjusted in the centre (cutout) of the top cap with a bolt per side in slotted grooves threading into the tapped bottom plate with the spring seat and spherical bearing for the strut anchor point. Keeping the full piece under the tower can be safer as some designs mostly go on top of the tower and have little meat under the tower cap to prevent 'blowthru'/ blowing/failing thru the top of the tower under hard compression. Some setups have failed that way/particularly on rally cars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted May 14, 2001 Share Posted May 14, 2001 Our roads are fairly bad here to. What kills me (and nearly has) is the subcontractors that do the work on the freeway 'temporary' patches have no concept of the angle of they're patches on the street. They will mark something as a 'bump' right before you hit it, and let me tell you something, its not a damn bump, its a ramp. I've hit one on the Harley before and it ejected by pack right off the bike while I was doing my impression of Evil Knievel landing the 'jump'. So I'm out on the freeway trying to run out to get my pack with my cell phone, extra gloves, other BS, when this broad centerpunches it and sends my crap flying. I then proceed to look like 'Frogger' running out on the freeway to retrieve my leather jacket, and watching my $75.00 HD gloves fly farther down the freeway. To say I was pissed was less than accurate. Show me a smooth road, and its probably in another state, Lone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted May 14, 2001 Share Posted May 14, 2001 Nion, I'm looking at doing a CNC run of possibly both strut spacers and camber plates. I priced out camber plates (not castor adjustable/use tc rod if you must/some caster can be built into them as is on my own set) and they'd run ~$200US for complete both sets including all bearings/hardware etc to run on top of 2.5" springs/replacing your top mount. I need ~10 committed buyers to go ahead/hope to post a pic soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted May 14, 2001 Share Posted May 14, 2001 Ross wrote: Keeping the full piece under the tower can be safer as some designs mostly go on top of the tower and have little meat under the tower cap to prevent 'blowthru'/ blowing/failing thru the top of the tower under hard compression. Some setups have failed that way/particularly on rally cars. Ross, all: I mounted my GC C/C plates on top, even though they are designed/intended to go under/inside the strut tower. Reason: the caster adjustment inside the strut tower is a joke - there's just no significant room to move the plates for increased caster. On top, I was able to push the holes as far back as I dared (very close to the "shoulder" where the tower turns down, leaving enough room for the bolt head and washer). The on-top installation required more of the strut tower top to be cut out, but there's still plenty of fairly thick doubled sheet metal holding firm. The biggest risk is that I have 4 bolts holding my C/C plates down - if I popped those in a heavy compression situation, my suspension would come to rest against the bottom of my hood. So far, potholes have not been enough to destroy the bolts - if they make it TO the track event, they'll make it THROUGH the track event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted May 14, 2001 Share Posted May 14, 2001 quote: Originally posted by jpd280z: Ross wrote: - if they make it TO the track event, they'll make it THROUGH the track event. Hmm, I always assume the inverse. If it survives track use then street use is no worry. Just keep everything torqued down. There's never a guarantee in roadracing (even just lapping days/not neck/neck racing) you won't go farming/offcourse or have to nail an FIA curb at a good/high clip to avoid something either. If that bump were a coon or porcupine/rock on a highway you'd experience more than some new hood contours in my guesstimate. 280ZX towers allow a lot more room and the caster limit is probably part of the fact a few reccomend using the TC rod to adjust this. An autox 240z champ maximized the length on his tc rods/opened up the two main holes somewhat to allow for the new geometry as well. along with other tweaks but it was useful knowing how he liked things done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted May 14, 2001 Share Posted May 14, 2001 For bad streets in San Diego there sure is a lot of street racing going on down there My question is, will I be able to keep the front and rear strut tower bars with these adjustable plates? Owen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QWKDTSN Posted May 15, 2001 Author Share Posted May 15, 2001 Ross - Here's the camber setup I saw. I'm not sure who makes them, and I know the picture's not that good, but it'll give you an idea. Basically, you just screw it in with some big Allen bolts. It's held in by two bolts, I think. You just change holes for different degrees of camber, and caster is available too, because you can use, say, the number 2 hole in the front and the number 3 hole in the rear. It's a very clean setup and looks like it works very well. Hell, the guy using them had what was probably the most expensive suspension setup on the track and he knew all the answers to all my questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted May 15, 2001 Share Posted May 15, 2001 Nion, any pics of that setup? Multiple holes on straight lines for camber instead of slots? and same for caster? why not slotted or they wouldn't stay with his setup?? I'd thought of various radial 'slots' to achieve camber and caster but then adjustments wouldn't have been independent (with only two plates) which I though would be no good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QWKDTSN Posted May 15, 2001 Author Share Posted May 15, 2001 Whoops - I forgot to add the image to the message Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted May 15, 2001 Share Posted May 15, 2001 quote: Originally posted by lonehdrider: Show me a smooth road, and its probably in another state, Lone I'm pretty sure that Michigan is in the bottom 5 states as far as road quality goes. IF potholes get repaired, it consists of dumping some tar/gravel mix into the hole and relying on traffic driving over it to tamp it down. Unless you've been here, I'm guessing that the road conditions here would be inconceivably bad to most 'outsiders'. In many areas, there is literally no way to drive around the potholes - there is just no clear path. C'mon Andy - back me up here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted May 15, 2001 Share Posted May 15, 2001 Nion, Ross -- That looks like the EMI Racing set-up. If my understanding of Solo rules is accurate (not likely, I'm not an "auto-tosser") BSP rules do not allow you to cut the strut towers? These units presumably mount in the stock strut tower holes, making them legal for that application. I may have this all wrong - going from (fading) memory. Any BSP-ers out there? BTW, I think I have a set of these in my garage, unused, in the box - will sell at 20% below list plus freight if anyone's interested. [ May 15, 2001: Message edited by: jpd280z ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QWKDTSN Posted May 15, 2001 Author Share Posted May 15, 2001 Yeah, yeah, that's what they are. I knew it started with an E. Um, I'll buy your set for $200... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted May 15, 2001 Share Posted May 15, 2001 Thanks for the pic, are the main two bolts so small that you can use holes 1-1 or 1-2? we know diagonal is longer than the straight shot so...... For class rules I can see that as popular/could be made for $200 for sure. I prefer keeping camber and caster as separate adjustments whether a 3rd plate or TC rod. Isn't it easier to setup suspension by doing one setting and then the other? Doing my setup as is the strut tower braces would be retained as those mounting bolts stay in stock location. It's the inner 2 slots (picture 2 slots alongside the centre strut hole on EMI's plate) for camber and a centre slot allowing the strut hole/bottom plate to travel. Machined slot tolerance keeps the strut in position casterwise/ie. bolt strength is not relied upon. Only in camber direction is bolt strength for retaining the setting. a digital camera would sure be handy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted May 16, 2001 Share Posted May 16, 2001 Those are the EMI Racing camber plates and Erik has a patent on the design. He's had to hire a lawyer to enforce that patent a couple times with some very well known suspension design companies. In fact, it looks like those plates in the picture are the ones we just took off my 240Z. I have a new, slightly improved design on my car now which uses a Teflon monoball and stronger Torington bearings int he front. FYI... I can get 8 degrees of positive caster using those plates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy 77zt Posted May 17, 2001 Share Posted May 17, 2001 do not buy cheap camber plates-i have been there and done that.you will get a rattle in strut tower that will never go away.most people run coil overs on street just to get car real low.i have found that if my car is to low at track it understeers at the limit.i would not put coil overs and camber plates on a street only car-it causes rattles and a rough ride.try following a late model porsche or bmw up a bumpy curvy road.watch the wheel travel-wheels move freely to follow road and stay in grip.do you have a designed purpose for your car?i have the track stuff on my car because i like to go to open track and drivers schools at laguna and thunderhill.as a daily driver the car is rough .i got rid off cheap camber plates in back and will be installing adjustable control arms.i run the rear coil overs with a 240 z upper rubber mount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted May 17, 2001 Share Posted May 17, 2001 Good point Randy, I want all this adjustable control arms and camber/caster plates but quite simply, my car is a street car. I have the coilovers for wheel clearance but the car is not slammed at all. In my stocker CRX the ride is bad enough on some of these streets, I like sliding across railroad tracks when making turns though One day I hope to get into the kinda racing you're in, then I'll see if I need the high tech stuff. Owen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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