Anyone Ever Tried This Cam Maker?

[Guest Mike]

Yeah' date=' I think comp is too big for their britches. When I called for a cam recommendation for the TT motor, I got a guy, who kept talking to some guy next to him, and he finally gave me a couple of lobe profiles to request, etc, etc.

 

Ok, so I give that info to Edwards Engines for them to order the cam since it's cheaper through them than if I buy it direct from comp. They call me about a week later and tell me that those lobe patterns were incorrect and some master cam technician recommended new lobe patterns and that they ordered those instead. So, I was like ok, whatever. Well, I ordered 4/7 swap, cast iron gear, custom solid roller, what I got was regular firing order, cast iron gear, custom solid roller. So, no biggie I guess, I just decided to run it like that. The springs for this lobe profile have 250lb seat pressure and some un-godly open pressure that I can't even remember right now, but like 700lb open if I remember correctly.

 

I've never had a problem with crower or isky, but I have with crane, but at one time crane was a bigger outfit than comp. Now I think comp is bigger than crane, or at least they act like a bureaucratic giant anyway. My main complaint with crane is that they prefer wide lobe centers and I grew up circle tracking using tight lobe centers like 104 and 106 not 114. Anyway they kept recommending these screwy IMO cams for circle track engines that had wide lobe centers, tried one and it totally sucked off the corners and was a dog. Changed cams to Isky with a 104 and kicked some bootie! Amazing what a cam can do for a motor.[/quote']

 

Okay... what's a good Crower solid roller cam and roller lifter set for a 2700 pound street car with a 350 SBC, 3.9 diff, 200R4 with 2K stall, dual quad dual plane intake, and fairly large tires (whatever is correct for the Alpha 1 kit car)? I'll NEVER rev this engine beyond 6.5K RPM and seldom beyond 6K. I'll soon add a progressive 100HP shot of nitrous... probably 30HP in 1st, 50HP in 2nd and 100 in 3/4. The reason for easing into the nitrous is that I don't want to damage my frame... no frame mods (yet).

 

I won't be racing this car... just shaming the occasional Mustangs and Camaros I meet on the street:D

[jakeshoe]

Okay... what's a good Crower solid roller cam and roller lifter set for a 2700 pound street car with a 350 SBC' date=' 3.9 diff, 200R4 with 2K stall, dual quad dual plane intake, and fairly large tires (whatever is correct for the Alpha 1 kit car)? I'll NEVER rev this engine beyond 6.5K RPM and seldom beyond 6K. I'll soon add a progressive 100HP shot of nitrous... probably 30HP in 1st, 50HP in 2nd and 100 in 3/4. The reason for easing into the nitrous is that I don't want to damage my frame... no frame mods (yet).

 

I won't be racing this car... just shaming the occasional Mustangs and Camaros I meet on the street:D[/quote']

 

For that combo I wouldn't mess with the issues a solid roller cam brings.

Honestly for a combo with a 2K stall and a 6500 rpm max rpm, if it is street car I would run a hydraulic flat or roller, and if it is a strip car a solid flat tappet cam.

A solid roller will provide better performance for a car that will see the high side of 6500, it requires checking the lifters occasionally because of the high spring pressures and lash beating the axles pretty hard.

If you do run a solid roller use the Crower Severe Duty lifters or Isky red Zones. These are the only suitable lifters IMO, especially for low rpm street operation.

I've been down the road of a solid roller street motor and it isn't worth the trouble, especially on a sub 6500 rpm SBC.

 

Nitrous and a dual quad dual plane intake sounds like a nightmare, you don't plan on using a plate system on that do you?

 

Progressive with only a 100 shot?

 

That light of a car with that much gear can use a fairly healthy cam, but your stall speed would be mismatched, it would need to be about 3000 rpm to use the cam I would run in a 355 SBC, I would go with ~236@.050 duration solid flat tappet, it would pull to 6K very good. You would find yourself in the 6500 range pretty often

It would work OK with a 2500 converter but 3000'ish would be much better. Also the Z cars weight will make a converter seem tighter, even though it may still flash where it should.

 

If I were you I would re-assess what your goals are with this motor, as it sounds like you are on the road to spend alot of unnecessary money on a combo that would go just as fast or faster with less money spent.

[grumpyvette]

For that combo I wouldn't mess with the issues a solid roller cam brings.

Honestly for a combo with a 2K stall and a 6500 rpm max rpm' date=' if it is street car I would run ......a solid flat tappet cam..... especially for low rpm street operation.

I've been down the road of a solid roller street motor and it isn't worth the trouble, especially on a sub 6500 rpm SBC.

That light of a car with that much gear can use a fairly healthy cam, but your stall speed would be mismatched, it would need to be about 3000 rpm to use the cam I would run in a 355 SBC, I would go with ~236@.050 duration solid flat tappet, it would pull to 6K very good. You would find yourself in the 6500 range pretty often

..... but 3000'ish would be much better. Also the Z cars weight will make a converter seem tighter, even though it may still flash where it should.

 

If I were you I would re-assess what your goals are with this motor, as it sounds like you are on the road to spend alot of unnecessary money on a combo that would go just as fast or faster with less money spent.[/quote']

jakeshoe points out a few things ID have pointed out, let me research the combo and ILL post shortly[/b]

[Guest Mike]

For that combo I wouldn't mess with the issues a solid roller cam brings.

Honestly for a combo with a 2K stall and a 6500 rpm max rpm' date=' if it is street car I would run a hydraulic flat or roller, and if it is a strip car a solid flat tappet cam.

A solid roller will provide better performance for a car that will see the high side of 6500, it requires checking the lifters occasionally because of the high spring pressures and lash beating the axles pretty hard.

If you do run a solid roller use the Crower Severe Duty lifters or Isky red Zones. These are the only suitable lifters IMO, especially for low rpm street operation.

I've been down the road of a solid roller street motor and it isn't worth the trouble, especially on a sub 6500 rpm SBC.

 

Nitrous and a dual quad dual plane intake sounds like a nightmare, you don't plan on using a plate system on that do you?

 

Progressive with only a 100 shot?

 

That light of a car with that much gear can use a fairly healthy cam, but your stall speed would be mismatched, it would need to be about 3000 rpm to use the cam I would run in a 355 SBC, I would go with ~236@.050 duration solid flat tappet, it would pull to 6K very good. You would find yourself in the 6500 range pretty often

It would work OK with a 2500 converter but 3000'ish would be much better. Also the Z cars weight will make a converter seem tighter, even though it may still flash where it should.

 

If I were you I would re-assess what your goals are with this motor, as it sounds like you are on the road to spend alot of unnecessary money on a combo that would go just as fast or faster with less money spent.[/quote']

 

Okay... it'll be a hydraulic roller then. I've never driven or ridden in a car with a stall converter, so my experience with them is nill. Are you saying that, in a 2700 pound car, a 3K stall converter will drive similarly to a stock converter in normal street driving? If so, then I wouldn't mind that option. I just want to retain daily drivability.

[grumpyvette]

a 3000 stall converter will work similar to a stock converter in the respect that at lower rpms and loads your car still acts similar to the stock converter, yes theres slightly more slippage but you won,t generally have problems,in fact this helps a great deal with the wilder cam, durration, yet once you increase the loads and rate of engine accelleration the differance is amazing.

 

any roller cam and associated valve train components (lifters,springs,pushrods,ETC.) is going to cost you a minimum of about $700 MORE than a flat tappet cam, a SOLID LIFTER FLAT TAPPET cam will both cost far less and work with fewer problems on the street,the much lower valve spring pressures and much lighter weight lifters will last longer in the enviorment where youll be driving in traffic on occasion or cruising at 2500-3000 rpm where the oil flow to the lifters is just not ideal for a solid roller with aggresive lobes and valve spring pressures, a hydrolic roller set up will cost even more and limits you to about 5800rpm without extra bvalve train components like a rev kit that adds almost $700 MORE to the cost,

trust me here a flat tappet solid lifter cam is the route you should take if your trying to get the best results for the money,

perameters

are you going to build it to the close to ideal specs or are you insistant on using your current heads, low cpr 350 displacement, and stall speed on the converter

 

heres what ID suggest as a killer dual quad combo

first build a 383 with a ballanced/ FORGED 10.5:1 cpr and use a 3000rpm stall converter and that 3.90:1 rear gearing

let me know if your willing to do that and use better heads OR if your insistant on useing your current heads, as the cam sellected will differ

[grumpyvette]

http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB64&Number=1255813&Searchpage=1&Main=1230604&Words=110921+grumpyvette&topic=&Search=true#Post1255813

 

I think youll get some usefull info reading thru this thread

 

keep in mind that if you built a similar dual quad 383 displacement engine combo with similar components youll easilly surpass his hp levels, as always the more important parts in the combo are

DISPLACEMENT,(the more the better)

HEADS,(it REALLY PAYS TO GET BETTER HEADS)

think BRODIX,TRICKFLOW,AFR

CAM,(MUST MATCH both rear gear,ratio stall speed,and cpr)

COMPRESSION RATIO(MUST MATCH, TRY FOR 10.2-10.5:1 with that cam, 10.5:1 is about ideal)

[Guest Mike]

a 3000 stall converter will work similar to a stock converter in the respect that at lower rpms and loads your car still acts similar...

 

trust me here a flat tappet solid lifter cam is the route you should take if your trying to get the best results for the money...

 

 

perameters

are you going to build it to the close to ideal specs or are you insistant on using your current heads' date=' low cpr 350 displacement, and stall speed on the converter...

 

[b']heres what ID suggest as a killer dual quad combo[/b]

first build a 383 with a ballanced/ FORGED 10.5:1 cpr and use a 3000rpm stall converter and that 3.90:1 rear gearing

let me know if your willing to do that and use better heads OR if your insistant on useing your current heads, as the cam sellected will differ

 

Stall converters: I didn't know they behaved so well in lighter cars. However, won't those hard launches twist my unmodified 260 frame?

 

Solid flat tappet cam: I've priced solid rollers setups at around $800 for everything and solid flat tappet setups (reusing my stock rockers) in the range of $300 or so (about $500 difference). Are the newer solid rollers really that temperamental? If so, then a guess a solid flat tappet is a better choice for me.

 

Parameters: I will update the heads within reason regarding cost. I've considered the new GM Vortec heads, BTW. CR is (I was told) 10.5:1. I'm trying to save this 355 short block (save money). I will consider a stall converter now that I understand how they work. I'm playing it safe and assuming stock (no forged) lower internals. This is why I'll never rev beyond 6.5K RPM and seldom beyond 6K. I want to use a little nitrous... but no more than 100HP and not very often.

[Guest Mike]

http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB64&Number=1255813&Searchpage=1&Main=1230604&Words=110921+grumpyvette&topic=&Search=true#Post1255813

 

I think youll get some usefull info reading thru this thread

 

keep in mind that if you built a similar dual quad 383 displacement engine combo with similar components youll easilly surpass his hp levels' date=' as always the more important parts in the combo are [/b']

DISPLACEMENT,(the more the better)

HEADS,(it REALLY PAYS TO GET BETTER HEADS)

think BRODIX,TRICKFLOW,AFR

CAM,(MUST MATCH both rear gear,ratio stall speed,and cpr)

COMPRESSION RATIO(MUST MATCH, TRY FOR 10.2-10.5:1 with that cam, 10.5:1 is about ideal)

 

Thanks Grumpy. That was an inspiring read. Please see my previous post with answers to your inquiries.

[jakeshoe]

Solid flat tappet cam: I've priced solid rollers setups at around $800 for everything and solid flat tappet setups (reusing my stock rockers) in the range of $300 or so (about $500 difference). Are the newer solid rollers really that temperamental? If so' date=' then a guess a solid flat tappet is a better choice for me.

[/quote']

 

There is absolutely no way you will setup a solid roller cam that will survive in a street application for $800 total in parts.

First there are only two lifters that will work and live, an Isky Red Zone and a Crower Severe Duty.

They are about $450 a set if you shop around. Both brand use a pressurized oil feed to the pin, no other solid rollers do this.

 

You could probably shop around a get a cam for $200-250, keep in mind you do NOT want an austempered cast iron core cam, which is what many of the manufacturers are selling in the "street rollers". You want a billet core, with a pressed on iron distributor gear. The last one I purchased was $325 to my door.

That is about what a semi-custom ground billet core roller is going to cost you.

Those two major items have already blown your budget, now lets talk about all the OTHER costs.

Valvesprings. $150 minimum for a decent spring, expect to replace these springs once a year, pay $400 for a set of Isky Gold Room springs and get reliability.

$50 for retainers, basic chromoly, you really want a super 7* lock type.

valve locks- $30-up

pushrods- $80 minimum.

retainer plate or cam button $20

Cast alum timing cover so that the cam button doesnt flex the cover, cam walks, ruins all the high dollar parts, eats up block face, etc. $100.

Roller rockers- $200 minimum, I would use Comp Pro-Magnums which are $300.

 

you will need screw in studs with guideplates, better buy heads that have that already.

 

What about piston to valve clearance? Are you thinking a set of stock 350 cast pistons have reliefs deep enough for a ~.600" lift cam?

 

Hope you arent planning on running stock 3 piece welded valves with solid roller spring pressures...

 

 

If you choose to go with a looser converter, the smaller the diameter for a given stall rating, the tighter it will feel and more efficient it will be.

For example an 11" converter that flashes to 3500 rpm is going to be sloppy compared to a 9.5" that does the same.

[dr_hunt]

I have these in my TT350, I think they fit the bill.

 

Chevrolet V8 265-400 1965-1996: The best all-around lifter available. Perfect for any application wi

PART #818-1

$25.86

Quantity:

None in your basket

 

 

 

DESCRIPTION:

Endure-X Solid Roller Lifters

 

For years COMP Cams® Super Roller Lifters have set the standard for solid roller lifter technology. But today’s engines place a greater demand on lifters, unlike ever before. In keeping with the heightened requirements, COMP Cams® has not only changed the name of this industry standard, but more importantly enhanced its durability with a series of innovative upgrades.

 

Most significant among the upgrades is the addition of EDM Oil Injection™ technology which ensures the bearing assembly receives a constant flow of pressurized oil. Unlike other lifters that offer pressurized oiling only as an upgrade, EDM Oil Injection™ technology is included standard in every Endure-X™ Solid Roller Lifter. This virtually eliminates needle bearing oil starvation, historically a “problem area†for solid roller lifters when used in low RPM and street applications. To further strengthen the bearing assembly, the Endure-X™ Solid Roller Lifters also include needle rollers that are precision sorted by size; evenly distributing loads to avoid premature wear and failure.

 

In addition to the new upgrades, all Endure-X™ Solid Roller Lifters still contain the features that made them the “preferred choice†among performance engine builders. Every lifter is fully heat treated, machined to ultra-high tolerances and fully rebuildable. The COMP Cam® patented link bar assembly blends all the advantages of a removable link bar, with the safety of a captured link bar. COMP Cams® Endure-X™ Solid Roller Lifters are available for a variety of applications, including small base circle and offset applications.

[Guest Mike]

There seems to be some disconcertion regarding what works and what doesn't. I can't complain though... I'm just a confused old fart. All I can do is try and filter through heart-felt good intentions and make the plunge. As Captain Kirk said when faced with unimaginible odds, "...sounds like fun":D

[jakeshoe]

The Comp Endure-x lifters are knownd as "Explodex" in racing circles. They do not hold up, and they do not have true pin oiling like the Crower or Isky's.

 

Check on Team Chevelle at http://www.chevelles.com in the performance section or on Drag Race Results, or about any other forum where people who race and see what the opinions are of the Comp Endure-X lifters. I've heard of quite a few people racing with good luck with the regular Comp lifters but the Endure-X line seems to be aimed at the street roller market with lighter valvespring pressures (because of the junk cast core cams).

 

Do your research...

[jakeshoe]

Does anyone see an issue with my above post?

 

Some seem to think I have a "chip on my shoulder" due to this post.

 

I'm relating some valuable information based on my experiences as a machinist and engine builder with hundreds of builds, but much of this information is also from other machinists and racers I have spoken to whom I trust for accurate information.

 

If I only knew of one or two failures of the Endure-X lifters I wouldn't even bring it up, however their reputation isn't isolated.

[jakeshoe]

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24840&highlight=endure-x

 

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108696&highlight=endure-x

 

Couple of quick links.

[grumpyvette]

while I don,t agree with every thing I don,t think the ENDURE-X lifters from comp cams are the best out there,Ive seen a few failures, I have compared them side by side and I would go with the CROWERS or ISKYS. but Id still think that your best buy for the money is the flat tappet solids for your particular application, especially since your thinking of upgrading the heads and getting the dual quads, ETC.

keep in mind that solid rollers are basically a race engine component, designed to be run hard , with far higher than stock lifts and spring pressures,but also to be inspected frequently and changed out at the first sign of impending failure.

solid lifter can be run for years if installed/and maintained correctly with few problems, due to the far simplier design and much lower stress levels due mostly to much lower spring pressures and milder ramp rates with lower lifts

[Guest Mike]

The Comp Endure-x lifters are knownd as "Explodex" in racing circles. They do not hold up' date=' and they do not have true pin oiling like the Crower or Isky's.

 

Check on Team Chevelle at www.chevelles.com in the performance section or on Drag Race Results, or about any other forum where people who race and see what the opinions are of the Comp Endure-X lifters. I've heard of quite a few people racing with good luck with the regular Comp lifters but the Endure-X line seems to be aimed at the street roller market with lighter valvespring pressures (because of the junk cast core cams).

 

Do your research...

 

So... Competition can't "compete"?? That's irony for ya':lol:

[dr_hunt]

"Just for info, Comp offered the groove in the older lifters sort of like the Endurnots deal before they brought out the new"pressurized" lifter at no charge & recommended it for most endurance applications."

 

This is from jake's link, apparently their first stab at oiling the pin wasn't what it is now.

[Guest Mike]

while I don' date='t agree with every thing I don,t think the ENDURE-X lifters from comp cams are the best out there,Ive seen a few failures, I have compared them side by side and I would go with the CROWERS or ISKYS. but Id still think that your best buy for the money is the flat tappet solids for your particular application, especially since your thinking of upgrading the heads and getting the dual quads, ETC.

keep in mind that solid rollers are basically a race engine component, designed to be run hard , with far higher than stock lifts and spring pressures,but also to be inspected frequently and changed out at the first sign of impending failure.

solid lifter can be run for years if installed/and maintained correctly with few problems, due to the far simplier design and much lower stress levels due mostly to much lower spring pressures and milder ramp rates with lower lifts[/quote']

 

Hi Grumpy,

 

You guys are truly amazing. I feel like small child among giants:eek:

 

I guess I should reiterate a few things. I don't want to be adjusting the valves regularly. I'll never rev this motor beyond 6.5K RPM and seldom beyond 6K. I don't mind spending $500+ EXTRA for a decent hyd roller setup. I should also make it clear that I don't want anything truly radical. I'll be very happy with a mid 12 sec car and extatic running high 11's. If my goals are askew or dillusional, please boink my brain with a used cam:)

 

Given my above parameters, what do you recommend? I don't intend to make you repeat yourself. I just want to do this only once and be happy with it.

[grumpyvette]

adjusting the lash on a solid lifter cam a few time a year is certainly neither difficult or time consumeing, its an easily learned skill, but....

if your set on a hydrolic roller combo thats fine, we can easily build a killer engine with that in mind, but I still would point out that a 383 displacement has advantages and since your very likely to need to change the pistons in your current 350 to get the correct compression and the heads will be differant (OR ARE WE STICKING TO THE SAME EDELBROCKS?)the differance in cost will be only a few hundred dollars (WELL SPENT)..keep in mind reguardless of the engine displacement hydrolic roller cams don,t normally opperate correctly much above 5800-6000rpm without an expensive rev kit installed

while a much cheaper solid flat tappet combo can easily pull 7000rpm

 

will you swap heads?

will you upgrade to a 383?

are you set on a hydrolic roller cam?

 

btw it won,t be an extra $500 it will be more once you get the MANDATORY springs, pushrods,lifters,cam retainers,locks,clearance work,(and youll be very likely to need minor machine work, and getting some decent roller rockers is advised

[grumpyvette]

CAM

http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&action=partSpec&partNumber=119661&lvl=2&prt=5

 

LIFTERS

http://www.crower.com/misc/m_cat.shtml (pg 120)

 

HEADS

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=10002&catalogIdentifier=Jegs_Direct&categoryId=78237&parentCategoryId=10187

 

Aluminum Cylinder Heads

200cc Intake ports

64cc Combustion Chambers

1.470'' Dual Valve Springs

(125 lbs. Closed / 325 lbs. Open)

.575'' Max lift

2.02''/1.60'' Valves

Straight Plug

Assembled

158-1021001

 

These cylinder heads are recommended for Pro Street applications with a 355-406 cid. engine operating from idle-6500 RPM with a flat tappet or hydraulic roller cam.

Features:

 

200cc Intake Port

64cc Combustion Chambers

1.470'' Dual Valve Springs

(125 lbs. Closed / 325 lbs. Open)

.575'' Max lift

2.02''/1.60'' Valves

Straight Plug

3/8'' Rocker Studs

5/16'' Guideplates

 

rotating assemblys

 

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=ESP%2DB12011030&N=700+115&autoview=sku

 

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=10002&catalogIdentifier=Jegs_Direct&categoryId=19411&parentCategoryId=10759