World Class T-5 to l-28 swap notes T5 L28

[gearheadstik]

These are notes that I was taking to plan a WC t-5 swap into my turbo L-28 280z, after seeing all the changes I would have to make to the trans, I have decided not to do the swap. I'm posting these notes to let members know what's involved...Feel free to add anything or comment on the process...In my opinion there are not a lot of detailed post on this process, which can be done in many different ways...I will discuss a few and talk about the cost involved...Like I said I have decided to do a different swap...which will be a KA for now seeing the cost and power it will take.

 

From what i've read Timz and Speeder both have custom WC t-5 center sections w custom datsun tail housings, which is going to require a Datsun t-5 bell housing, shift fork rod, tail housing, and custom clutch to fit the 10 spline of the ford input shaft...Ford front bearing retainer will have to be machined on the o.d. to fit smaller hole in bellhousing or housing hole enlarged...It is also possible for the retainer to be shortened. I would think it would be cheaper and easier to machine the retainer. Tail housing will have to be modded for a larger seal being the output shaft is larger in dia.. Timz told me that the shifter hole in the z had to be modded some to make shifter work even though the datsun tail was used. I have read Speeders post that you would also have to build a custom mount too.... So if you plan this swap you will need one of each trans to start with.

 

The inputs are different, both in spline numbers and the flange the blocker rides on...I think you could swap them if you wanted, as long as you used the correct retainer and the blocker from the orig shaft. The tappered bearing appears to be the same...The datsun shaft looks to be weaker due to it's smaller dia.

 

The outputs are the same length and so is the overall lenght from tip of input to tail shaft, numbers of splines are different....Bell housings are different depths along with the retainer bore.

 

To use datsun tail housing you will have to machine for larger ford seal and the bushing changed inside, being you will use a larger dia yoke for the ford output. I dont know what you would do about the speedo gear being it's in different locations on the output shaft.

 

If ford tail housing is used it is going to put your shifter around 3in foward of the datsun location...you will probably be ramming it into the stereo when shifting if no custom shifter fabbed.

 

Now about the cost.. I have a datsun t-5 ..Free...A possibly good ford wc t-5 is going to prob cost at least 200-600+.. WC t-5s were rated at different hp and tq levels....and most out of the stangs have been beat over time, so plan on buying some parts..The gear box on ebay offers a 2.95 gear set that brings the tq up to 335lbs and 350-400hp for 361.00. Billet syncro keys for 60.00..The deluxe rebuild kit is 265.00..yoke is 54.00...Plus what a good shifter cost and throw out bearing...So your talking about well over a grand for a rebuilt trans that will only take 350-400hp....I can pick up a KA trans used that has been in a low hp car for less than 100.00 ....the shifters are ok stock, you can use your same clutch, a housing off a old datsun trans modded youself...So the KA will handle from what i read the same power, and I can build it for near nothing...If I end up w more power I will go to the z32 trans which will take 600hp, and you can do that for around 650 total..if you do it yourself...Why go T-5?

 

 

 

.................................................................Ford WC T-5 ................................................................................Datsun T-5

Input bearing race o.d. ................................-.668 .............................................................................................-.621

Bearing appears the same

Input Splines .................................................-10...................................................................................................- 24

Input Shank ...................................................-1.005..............................................................................................- .906

Input rear seat for blocker 2.4 Larger on datsun

Pilot bearing shank ........................................-1.0 ................................................................................................-1.100

Splines start back .........................................-1.150 ..............................................................................................-1.730

Front bearing retainer Datsun is too small for ford input shaft so you would have to use ford part

OD of part .......................................................-4.911 ............................................................................................-4.855

Taller by ...........................................................-.850

Through out bearing bore or area where through out rides

............................................................................-1.431 ...........................................................................................-1.296

Output shaft

Over all length is the same on both shafts

splines................................................................- 28 ...............................................................................................-26

Spline length .......................................................-4.2...............................................................................................- 3.1

spline dia...........................................................- 1.18-1.2......................................................................................- 1.085

Speedo center from end of shaft ........................-9.3...........................................................................................- 5.7

Shifter location measured from frt of tail housing to far side of shifter mount surface

..............................................................................-12-3/8 .......................................................................................-15-5/16

Shift fork rod.......................................................- 17..............................................................................................- 22

Tail seal o.d. ......................................................-2.368 ...........................................................................................-1.982

Tail bushing ...........................................................-1.5 ...........................................................................................-1.3

Trans mount to center bolt hole.......................- 5.5.................................................................................................- 6.5

 

Warning these measurements are as close as I was able to measure with the tools I have compairing the two trans....It may not be exact, so use caution if using the for a build.

[TimZ]

So the KA will handle from what i read the same power, and I can build it for near nothing...If I end up w more power I will go to the z32 trans which will take 600hp, and you can do that for around 650 total..if you do it yourself...Why go T-5?

 

The point wasn't to use a plain-jane WC t5, the point was to use a gForce T5 gearset (rated 650lb-ft, 650hp), and have it package just as though it were a stock zxt T5.

 

As I recall, the whole WC T5 center section should bolt up to the Datsun Bellhousing and tailshaft - I think you were making this sound harder than it was.

 

The clutch mod was a complete no-brainer - I think clutch specialties charged me $40 to swap out the the hub for the correct spline.

 

McLeod hydraulic TOB was a bolt on and works with the stock clutch mc.

 

The speedo gear was epoxied in place and works fine with my stock speedo and cable

 

The biggest headache was adding material to the tailshaft and machining for the new output shaft seal, but that still wasn't that big of a deal. That and modding the input shaft to fit the L-series pilot bushing

[gearheadstik]

Thanks for the quick follow up Tim, but I did know yours was a g-force unit and do realize they are much stronger but, I could not afford to do this right now...plus don't have near the power you do yet...How much is a gear set from g-force, I'm thinking they are over 1000 bones...I know your trans is probably a great one, just not what I needed at this time. The t-5 might be a better option for some....

Tim when you say the center section will bolt right up, I know it will but also know a ford bearing retainer will not fit the housing without machine work to one of the parts plus the shift rod will be too short...right??? Not to try to make this sound like a hard job, but I would have to have a datsun t-5, buy a WC trans, rebuild kit, shifter, custom centered clutch, and have to pay for the machine work or other work I could not do...ending up with a T-5 that handles the same power as a KA trans, which are cheap as dirt, require machine work, that I can do at home, same clutch, same shifter... It just make sence to me to not to the T-5 unless I could go g-force.. How am I making it sound harder than it is? If I'm wrong about anything, let me correct it early on...Thanks and more power to you Tim, your car is tha shiznick.

[TimZ]

Thanks for the quick follow up Tim, but I did know yours was a g-force unit and do realize they are much stronger but, I could not afford to do this right now...plus don't have near the power you do yet...How much is a gear set from g-force, I'm thinking they are over 1000 bones...I know your trans is probably a great one, just not what I needed at this time. The t-5 might be a better option for some....

Tim when you say the center section will bolt right up, I know it will but also know a ford bearing retainer will not fit the housing without machine work to one of the parts plus the shift rod will be too short...right??? Not to try to make this sound like a hard job, but I would have to have a datsun t-5, buy a WC trans, rebuild kit, shifter, custom centered clutch, and have to pay for the machine work or other work I could not do...ending up with a T-5 that handles the same power as a KA trans, which are cheap as dirt, require machine work, that I can do at home, same clutch, same shifter... It just make sence to me to not to the T-5 unless I could go g-force.. How am I making it sound harder than it is? If I'm wrong about anything, let me correct it early on...Thanks and more power to you Tim, your car is tha shiznick.

 

I agree that it's probably too much work for a regular WC T5.

 

Has anybody actually proven that the KA trans is really stronger than the n/a trans? Not saying it isn't - just saying I've only heard anecdotal evidence. Before I changed to the T5, I was using an na 5-speed from an 81 ZX. With a fresh rebuild, it help up pretty respectably until I started pushing more than 400hp to the wheels.

 

It's been a couple of years, but I don't recall having to do anything special for the bearing retainer - what machining were you referring to? As far as the shift rods - I don't think we had to do anything special there, either - either the Ford rods fit, or we were able to use the Datsun ones to be honest, I just don't remember which, but there was no "one-off" solution required for that.

[gearheadstik]

You must have used the datsun rod...there is a difference in approx 3in between shifter locations, the ford rod is too short to reach. The input bearing retainer is 4.9in o.d. datsun is a 4.8in o.d.....the hole in the datsun bellhousing is to small unless you pressed it on "which I don't think can be done" or removed some metal....

 

As far as handling power goes, Garrett76zt stated in older post "I feel like the tranny would have held up just fine at 18psi/pump gas (340hp)" after he did his in running 11.8ET runs...seems that the torque levels of the l28 are what kill the trans after doing some reading, which Zgad talks on. "I was making somewhere around 430hp/470tq to the wheels (per a recent set of dyno pulls) at the time" on N/A trans from your old post...so your probably right about that..I should probably invest on the next step higher being the z32 trans.

 

I just wanted to document some of this info for members to think of all the work and options involved.

[speeder]

This conversion would need the Datsun top cover/shift rod assembly. You guys are right - All considered, probably too much trouble for a garden variety T5.

 

I'll tell ya, It's a real biatch to realise that you've got lots more time,effort, and money to spend on your drivetrain after that kickass motor is built. Most people (me included) don't consider this until stuff starts to break.

[Tony D]

The Keisler TKO that JeffP used had a custom shifter that has a three-link shift rod bolted together with serration in it to lock the rod in whatever position you put it. As I recall it was originally configured to put the knob quite abit reward from where the pivot went into the gearbox...almost 4"!

 

I know he roconfigured it for the ZX as he didn't need that setback, but I would think any aftermarket shifter for the applicable T5 would make the shifter relocation a moot point. With the advantages of the adjustable stops on the shifter to keep from overcentering the shift rod/forks, as well as spring loaded shifting gates, for the money I don't know why wanybody would stick with the stock shifter. In for a pfenning, in for a pound!

 

Jeff's situation was similar to Tim's as well. At 450 verified to the rear wheels, I could watch the stock T5 shift knob move around quite a bit, and the noises the gearbox started making under load were not good! Keep in mind that there was an RX7 at Bonneville running turbos that was using a transmission with a stock mainshaft assembly, at speed...when the torque of the Rotary came full on (about 160-180mph) the countershaft assembly flexed enough that the Fifth and First Gears engaged simultaneously, locking the transmission (as well as the rear wheels). This caused the transmission to literally BLOW OUT under the car, lifting it into the air where it did a series of flat spins... (and this comes from a post event dissection).

 

When you are making serious power, stock will not cut it. This area may cause some severe, instantaneous, catastrophic failures at a VERY innoportune moment. This Mazda had made COUNTLESS passes with this very transmission, and the torque it produced during those juuuuust wasn't quite enough to make that second gear engage. But on that day, with the right air density, that little bit of torque was produced, that thousandth or couple of thousandths of flew happened, and BOOM! Totally different situation than just one pass before!

 

This situation came up when I watched Jeff's stick moving around and heard that stock T5 Screaming. I think the stock internals are marginal at best at that power level.

 

Thing is, Mazda guys were welding Mazda Bellhousings onto Nissan Trannies to hold the power...

 

Be safe and don't press it till you know your tranny can handle it.

 

From my 73, I ran the N/A tranny and purposely limited HP to the rear to below/max 350. I figured I'd go with a T5 when I upgraded. Who knows what I will use now...that N/A was not really dragged but did see AutoX and hard Street Driving for close to 17 years and held up fine, though it started out in my car with only 8400KM on it---it was from a Totaled 84 Skyline L20ET that I got RIGHT when it came into the junkyard, and then sat in my spare room for almost 3 years till it was ready to go into the car! Using one with higher mileage may not hold up as well or as long. I have about 50,000 miles on the car with the trannny in it at that power level.

[gearheadstik]

On the subject of the TKO...Don't overlook there are 5 types. 3550-TKO, TKO,TKO-2,TKO-500, TKO-600. Which is he using and what kind of cost is involved in getting it to bolt to the L6?