Tokico HTS and New Springs

[JustinOlson]

Any more track days on these? I'm thinking about trying these out when I pull my suspension apart this winter.

 

Justin

[z-ya]

Yes, I ran the Skip Barber road course at the convention in Daytona. I was supposed to do the Sebring event also, but an electrical gremlin cut my trip short.

 

No Problems with the shocks after a number of track days.

[johnc]

No Problems with the shocks after a number of track days.

 

But, how do they work? What's good about their performance and what's bad? How's the car handling?

[z-ya]

But, how do they work? What's good about their performance and what's bad? How's the car handling?

 

The car is handling better than it ever has. The problem is that I changed the springs from 250lb to 350lb at the same time I changed the shocks. Overall, the dampening characteristics seem to be better than the Illuminas, but with stiffer springs there is less travel under hard cornering and braking, so it may not be a fair comparison.

 

Right now I have the dampening set at 50% front, and around 30% rear. The car turns-in great. I softened up the rear a bit which makes the rear come around a bit more predictable. Overall the handling is neutral.

 

Hear is the approximate alignment:

 

Camber front: -2.5

Camber rear: -2

Toe front: 0

Toe rear: 0

Caster front: stock

[johnc]

What size wheels and tires?

 

For 225 to 245 width radial DOT tires try these alignment settings:

 

Front

 

Camber: 3 to 3.25 neg

Caster: 6 to 7 positive (even on both sides)

Toe: 1/8" to 3/16" out

Ride height: 5 1/2" to 6"

 

Rear

 

Camber: 2.5 to 3 neg

Toe: 1/16" to 1/8" in

Ride height: 5 3/4" to 6 1/4"

 

For tire widths over 245 try these alignment settings:

 

Front

 

Camber: 2.75 to 3 neg

Caster: 6 to 7 positive (even on both sides)

Toe: 1/16" to 1/8"" out

Ride height: 6" to 6 1/2"

 

Rear

 

Camber: 2.25 to 2.5 neg

Toe: 1/16" to 1/8" in

Ride height: 6 1/4" to 6 3/4"

[z-ya]

I run the following wheel tire combos:

 

245-45ZR16 on 16x8 rims

225-45ZR15 on 15x7 rims

225-50ZR15 on 15x7 rims

 

The camber is maxed out so LR = RR and LF = RF. I don't have camber plates so I've just slotted the shock towers.

 

Where are you measuring ride height, bottom lip of fender?

 

I'll try your toe suggestions, but I need to get it running again first.

 

Thanks,

[johnc]

I measure ride height at the front and rear of the rocker panel. The horizontal flat part outside of the welded vertical lip.

 

You really, really need more camber.

[1 tuff z]

pete, did ya notice how much my z was rolling over at dis? i didn't realize it [suspected it although] until i just saw the pics, aagh!

[thehelix112]

I'm surprised you run 225s on a 7 and 245s on an 8 to be honest. That sounds like its going to be a bit of a `loose' fit and things will be wobbling around the place. I have no direct experience, but my mates with some more racing experience recommend 205 on a 7, 225 on an 8, and 245 on a 9.

 

Glad to hear the shocks are working well, but my question is (I guess to johnc), how do they compare to an 8610? Oh and thanks for the alignment suggestions john, much appreciated and worth its weight in gold.

 

Dave

[z-ya]

pete, did ya notice how much my z was rolling over at dis? i didn't realize it [suspected it although] until i just saw the pics, aagh!

 

What did you have your shocks set to? I run 3 in front, and 5 in the rear on my silver car at the track. I set them to 1 on the street. I have 250lb springs on the silver car.

 

The old Bad Dog (junkyard dog) leaned almost as much as your car with 250lb springs. It would lift the inside front tire in tight turns. It now has 350lb front and 375lb rear on it. The lean you do see is mostly the 225-50ZR15 RA-1 tires. They have a fair amount of sidewall. I changed to 225-45ZR15 Hoosiers later in the day, but I don't think any of the photos are with those tires on the car. The RA-1s are great in the rain, but not so great in the dry as compared to the Hoosiers. I'm also not running a rear sway bar as the car turns much better without it.

[z-ya]

I'm surprised you run 225s on a 7 and 245s on an 8 to be honest. That sounds like its going to be a bit of a `loose' fit and things will be wobbling around the place. I have no direct experience, but my mates with some more racing experience recommend 205 on a 7, 225 on an 8, and 245 on a 9.

Dave

 

Lot's of people run 225s on 7" rims. The actual tire determines how much they bulge. The 225-45ZR15 Hoosiers fit great on 7" rims with very little bulging. The 225-15ZR15 RA-1s are a different story on 7" rims. The 245-45ZR16 RA-1s fit nice on 8" rims. I know a lot of racers that run 225s on 7" rims (like every SCCA ITS racer).

[1 tuff z]

What did you have your shocks set to? I run 3 in front, and 5 in the rear on my silver car at the track. I set them to 1 on the street. I have 250lb springs on the silver car.

 

The old Bad Dog (junkyard dog) leaned almost as much as your car with 250lb springs. It would lift the inside front tire in tight turns. It now has 350lb front and 375lb rear on it. The lean you do see is mostly the 225-50ZR15 RA-1 tires. They have a fair amount of sidewall. I changed to 225-45ZR15 Hoosiers later in the day, but I don't think any of the photos are with those tires on the car. The RA-1s are great in the rain, but not so great in the dry as compared to the Hoosiers. I'm also not running a rear sway bar as the car turns much better without it.

 

pete, for some reason i had my tokico illumina's set to 2 in front and 1 in the rear-don't ask why cause i don't know...springs are 225 f and 250 r. spoke to john c last evening and suggested i raise my ride height to the following, 6.25" f and 6.5" rear. as a note i dropped the tire off yesterday to get the 'flat' fixed [got something in the tire about 4 hrs from home] and then can effectively check ride height. i spoke to a number of lappers who do not run a rear bar, so i'm considering removing mine. also gotta call the shop that did the alignment so i can get the current specs. john c can't diagnose the problem if he doesn't know all the info!!

[johnc]

Glad to hear the shocks are working well, but my question is (I guess to johnc), how do they compare to an 8610?

 

I will qualify my reply with this - I have not personally raced on the Tokico HTS shocks. I am relying on the info from the dyno charts and informaiton from people like Pete and another friend who is racing on a set.

 

The 8610-1437RACE single adjustable is just about perfect for a 240Z running springs in the 250 to 375 range. Its also completely rebuildable and can be revalved for about $100 each. Being a race oriented shock it needs periodic servicing (every race season or two) and the top seal/bearing tends to wear out after a couple years. If the gland nut gets loose, the top seal/bearing will fail in a heartbeat. The Koni is a very tight fit in a 240Z strut and you'll most likely have to shave some paint off.

 

The HTS is close to perfect for a 240Z running springs in the 250 to 400 range. The compression damping increase is ok, but at the upper end of the range its a bit more then the 240Z needs. Rebound damping is fine. It is not rebuildable and is sealed for life. It cannot be revalved. Per some racers who run these shocks (Mustang American Iron guys running D-Sepcs) these shocks last forever with no maintenance. Its an easy fit in the 240Z strut tube.

 

I'm going to install a set of Tokico D-Specs (just a re-branded HTS) on my 350Z and compare them with some Koni single adjsutables I've been running for the past year.

[thehelix112]

Lot's of people run 225s on 7" rims. The actual tire determines how much they bulge. The 225-45ZR15 Hoosiers fit great on 7" rims with very little bulging. The 225-15ZR15 RA-1s are a different story on 7" rims. The 245-45ZR16 RA-1s fit nice on 8" rims. I know a lot of racers that run 225s on 7" rims (like every SCCA ITS racer).

 

I completely agree that the tyre involved has a lot to do with it. Though from what I can find, the Hoosier 225/50R15 has a much wider section width on a 7: 9.8" (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Spec.jsp?make=Hoosier&model=R6&tirePageLocQty) compared with the Toyo: 9.2" (http://www.sascosports.com/products/specs.php?type_id=38).

 

Whilst I don't doubt you speak from experience, and I know I don't, I'm just curious I guess how you define `bulge' and `great fit'.

 

JohnC,

 

Thanks for the words of wisdom. 8610s for me, unless I get rich and can afford some 8611s. I look forward to hearing your first hand experiences with the HTSs.

 

Dave

[z-ya]

I completely agree that the tyre involved has a lot to do with it. Though from what I can find, the Hoosier 225/50R15 has a much wider section width on a 7: 9.8" (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Spec.jsp?make=Hoosier&model=R6&tirePageLocQty) compared with the Toyo: 9.2" (http://www.sascosports.com/products/specs.php?type_id=38).

Whilst I don't doubt you speak from experience, and I know I don't, I'm just curious I guess how you define `bulge' and `great fit'.

 

Have you ever looked at a tire wheel combo and said that either the rim is too wide, or too narrow? To me, if the tire sidewall is on the same vertical plane as the wheel mounting surface (parallel), it is a good fit. If the sidewall pitches inward or outward from that plane, then I would define it as negative or positive "bulge" respectively. Does that clear up my not so technical use of terms?

 

I'll take some photos and post.

[thehelix112]

I'm sorry to be so pedantic. That does make sense. I always shoot for a small amount of `in' bulge.

 

Pics would be awesome.

 

Dave

[1 tuff z]

johnc, for those viewing and using the info below for their alignment-the specs you've listed are they for street, track or a combo?

 

What size wheels and tires?

 

For 225 to 245 width radial DOT tires try these alignment settings:

 

Front

 

Camber: 3 to 3.25 neg

Caster: 6 to 7 positive (even on both sides)

Toe: 1/8" to 3/16" out

Ride height: 5 1/2" to 6"

 

Rear

 

Camber: 2.5 to 3 neg

Toe: 1/16" to 1/8" in

Ride height: 5 3/4" to 6 1/4"

 

For tire widths over 245 try these alignment settings:

 

Front

 

Camber: 2.75 to 3 neg

Caster: 6 to 7 positive (even on both sides)

Toe: 1/16" to 1/8"" out

Ride height: 6" to 6 1/2"

 

Rear

 

Camber: 2.25 to 2.5 neg

Toe: 1/16" to 1/8" in

Ride height: 6 1/4" to 6 3/4"

[johnc]

Autocross/Track only.

[1 tuff z]

suggestions for the dual purpose z's out there [street, auto-x & track]?

[johnc]

Make sure you have adjustable components (camber plates, coil overs, rear adjustable LCAs or offset bushings) and adjust for each environment. One size fits all alignment settings work poorly. The Z is really sensitive to alignment and a 1 degree difference in camber is enough to change a pig into a thoroughbread (or make a faster pig).