John Scott Posted March 14, 2000 Share Posted March 14, 2000 I need some advice from you experienced stick shifters. What are the preferred years/ models for T5s. I have a neighbor waving one under my nose. It is from a Late 80s early 90s TransAm. Is the T5 different from the 305s to the 350s? What's the going rate for a good T5? (Just rebuilt) And for comparison, how much is a good Vette 700r4 these days?(I bought mine in 94.) I'm not making tons of torque, so the T5 should handle my engine and my low end launch problem. Do you need a different bellhousing? The TA has the wierd offset. Tailshaft splines are same as 350, right? Thanks! [This message has been edited by John Scott (edited March 14, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 15, 2000 Share Posted March 15, 2000 John, I just did an TH350 automatic to T5 swap last weekend and it went perfectly. The guys here tried to talk me out of it because the T5 won't handle alot of torque. I completely understand what the mean and agree that if you can, you should go with the T56, but I just couldn't afford a $1200 6-speed right now...and I have a friend that has a 280 with a small block 400 and he got a T5 out of a late '80s Trans Am and he has driven it pretty hard and it has held up so far. I have found T5's all over Atlanta for around $500...but I got one out of an '86 Camaro that had been totaled out, sitting behind an autobody shop for $150 and I just couldn't pass it up. Make sure that you get the stock Camaro or Trans Am slave cylinder also. The Camaro and Trans Am bell housings are the same...I believe they put the tranny on an 18 degree tilt, which is find because the tilt puts the tranny mount vertical. If you use a different bell housing, the mount will be tilted which will make it difficult to make a crossmember that will bolt up, and the stock Camaro or T/A slave cyl probably won't bolt up either. My friend used another type of bell housing and he said it was a PAIN to get the crossmember fabricated and to get the slave cyl to bolt up. I used the Camaro bell housing and it bolted right into the same crossmember that I was using for my TH350...all I had to do was turn the crossmember around 180 degrees so the bolt holes were in the back instead of the front, because the T5 is 3" longer than the TH350. The hardest, or actually easiest part was the master and slave cylinder setup...There are so many different ways to do this, and everyone says to use a 7/8" tildon master cylinder with the stock Camaro or Trans Am slave cylinder. But to do that you have to drill and tap the slave cyl for pipe thread since it uses a non-threaded hose connection and get hose specially made and a bunch of fittings and junk to get it to work...and that sounded a little iffy to me. So, I just went to the local "Auto Zone" auto parts store and told them that I was doing a "fabrication job" and they let me go into the back of the store and look on the shelves to see if I could find anything that would work...after about 10 minutes of looking I found a 7/8" master cyl that was about 5 1/2" long, that had a bolt pattern REAL close to the stock Z cylinder, and had the same exact hose connection as the stock Camaro/Trans Am slave cylinder, "YEAH!!!". I took it back up front and they looked the part number up in the catalog to see what it was suppposed to fit, and guess what, it was a clutch master cyl for an '83-'89 model Ford F-150 pickup! "EXCELLENT!!!" So I took it home and bolted it in...the bottom stud on the firewall was perfect and put the slave cyl pushrod and boot right in the stock hole, but the top stud was just about 1/4" to low, so all I had to do was knock out the top stud and drill another hole 1/4" higher and it bolted in perfectly and the pushrod setup on the Ford master cyl bolted right to the clutch pedal. The Camaro and Trans Am hose to connect the master and slave cylinders is too short, so I went to the Ford dealership and bought the hose for the F-150 pickup, which of course was longer, and took it home and it hooked the Ford master cyl to the Camaro slave cylinder perfectly!!! So I paid $150 for the T5 and slave cyl, about $65 for the master cyl, and about $39 for the hose...and everything connects together and looks like a "clean" stock setup. Oh, and I bought the Hurst comp. plus shifter for it also, which makes the shift throws alot shorter. BUT, The flywheel that came out of the Camaro would not bolt to my 327, so I had to get another flywheel...thanks to my friend that had one sitting in his garage. If your neighbor will sell that T5 to you for a good price and it was behind a V8, then jump on it! There's no difference between the 305 and 350 T5's, but there is a big difference in the V6 and V8 T5's. The V6 has a 10 spline input shaft and the V8 has a 26 spine input shaft, so make sure you don't get a V6 T5. And yes, the V8 T5 has the same tailshaft splines as the TH350 and 700R4. I was seriously thinking about replacing my TH350 for a 700R4, but after driving my Z with a "stick", I will never even consider an automatic again...the difference is unbelievable!!! Hope this helps...see ya. Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike kZ Posted March 15, 2000 Share Posted March 15, 2000 Good post Lee! I'd like to check out your clutch master find to see if it would work with my T56! Much cheaper alternative! P.S. Do you need help with your rear end swap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Scott Posted March 15, 2000 Author Share Posted March 15, 2000 Lee, I love stories like that. Thanks! The tranny in question is a world class T5 from a V8. My auto part stores won't let me behind the counters anymore. I spent too much time looking for the "perfect" radiator hose! Anyone out there have an idea what a good used Vette 700 goes for?. Also, Lee, what clutch/ pressure plate are you using? Anyone know if the mustang T5s the same? And are the T5s longer/shorter than a 700? [This message has been edited by John Scott (edited March 15, 2000).] [This message has been edited by John Scott (edited March 15, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 16, 2000 Share Posted March 16, 2000 John, No Problem...I'm glad it helped you out. After thinking, worrying, and loosing hair over stuff like that, it's nice to know that you can keep someone else from having to do the same, ya know? But yeah, if it's a WC T5 and has a good price, then I'd get it. Sorry to hear about the "parts store restriction" that you have going. But I think the reason they let me behind the counter was because they were tired of messing with me...it's hard to walk into a parts store and say I need an upper radiator hose for a '74 Datsun 260Z with a '68 327ci engine and '85 Camaro aluminum radiator. And you know what's really funny is that when you tell them that, they look at you like YOU'RE the one that's stupid. If THEY had any brains, then they would know that doing something like this isn't easy, but it only takes a little reasoning to find a part that will work. Which is exactly the problem that I'm having now with my R200...but I'll discuss that in my next post to Mikekz. But anyway, I'm using the clutch and pressure plate that came out of the Camaro. I went to Auto"twilight"Zone and bought all new stuff, but of course, they sold me the wrong ones and unfortunately when I bought them, I didn't have the old stuff with me that came out of the Camaro to compare...and I figured, how many different types of clutch and plates could there be that came in a 1983 Camaro Z28 with a 305??? But the tranny that I bought looks like it has been freshly rebuilt and the clutch and plate that was in the car looked almost BRAND new...so I HATED to do it, but I just put that stuff back in there and it's working great...Although, they did sell me the right throwout bearing, so I DID put that in there. The flywheel that came out of the Camaro was the same diameter as my flexplate in the TH350, but my crank pilot and bolt pattern in the 327 was larger. I think that the diameter of my flywheel is 12.75" and the other size is 14". So I don't think that you could use the larger 14" flywheel, clutch and pressure plate when using the T/A bell housing...but I'm not sure about how all that stuff can be intermixed. All I know is that I couldn't use a 14" flywheel on my block because the starter wouldn't have room to bolt up. I've heard that the T5's in the mustangs are different...I think that they can be made to work somehow, but it's probably not worth the cost. According to the JTR manual, the 700R4 and the T5's are the same length...at least they say that the driveshaft lengths are the same for both of those trannys. I know that the 700's aren't too cheap...and would probably be more than a T5. But I'm telling you the truth John, GO WITH THE STICK!!! I mean it man...there's NO way that any automatic can compare. In 5th, at about 60MPH, I'm only turning 1500 RPMs...compared to 2500 with my TH350. And yes, the 700 will be about the same, but the big difference is being able to control the shift RPMs, and that made my car feel like I instantly added another 300HP. Just thought I'd share that "hint, hint" with ya. Sorry for being so long winded...later on. Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 16, 2000 Share Posted March 16, 2000 Thanks Mikekz, Hey, I'm probably going to drive mine up to work in a week or so...and I don't work too far from Emory, so I figured that would be a good time for us to hook up. I ordered another $1000 worth of parts yesterday and as soon as it all gets here and I get the stuff installed I'll drive it up there. I ordered the fiberglass cowl-induction full hood, a set of Tokico springs and struts, strut spacers, urethane bushings, urethane steering coupler, solid diff mount, polished strut support bar, speedo cable, and stainless steel brake lines. Well, I probably won't get ALL of that stuff installed, but I would at least like to get the springs and struts on there before I get it on the highway...my right rear strut is REALLY messed up or something. It seems like it will compress but it won't rebound, so it stays down on that side when I hit a bump. But I will email you when I plan on bringing it up there and maybe we can get together at lunch or after work or something. The hyd clutch setup that I'm using might work for you...when you check it out you will probably be able to tell. As far as the help with the R200 swap...WELL...I think I've read enough so I could do the swap in my sleep, but the problem is that I don't know exactly what year car the R200 came out of. I know that it's a 3.54 and that it's a late model (probably 300ZX)...but my R180 pinion flange is a 2 3/4" bolt pattern with a 2 1/4" pilot diameter and the R200 is a 3" bolt pattern with a 2" pilot diameter. AND, the pinion shaft with the splines on the R200 is bigger. I went to Zcar Atlanta today and got a pinion flange off an earlier model R200 that had the same bolt pattern and pilot diameter as my R180 and I thought I had it wipped, but that splined pinion shaft in my R200 is still bigger than the one I got off the earlier model R200 by about 1/16". My driveshaft has a rear flange that will bolt to my R180 and it uses the Chevy u-joints...so I went to the place where I got the driveshaft made and they said that they could get a rear driveshaft flange (like the one I already have) for the R180 that will accept Chevy ujoints but the only rear flange that they have to fit the R200 will only use the stock Datsun u-joints. I mean REALLY!, how stupid is that??? They make a little "cheezy" R180 flange that uses Chevy joints but they don't make the "beefy" R200 flange that will use Chevy joints??? I just don't understand the logic there...and I know that the Datsun joints would, maybe, probably, might just hold up...but I don't think I want to chance it, ya know? So I called JTR, because they have them listed for sale in the conversion manual...kinda expensive, but I thought what the heck. And guess what...My manual is an old 3rd edition that lists both sizes, but now they only offer ONE flange and it's the one with the same bolt pattern as the one on my driveshaft now and it's too small. So to make a long story even longer, I need a pinion flange for my R200 that will fit these BIG A$$ 300ZX splines and has the small 2 3/4" bolt pattern AND!!!, has the large 2 1/4" pilot diameter...so in other words, I"M SCREWED!!! Oh well, a few more hairs lost, but I'm sure that I will get it straight. I'm going back to Zcar Atlanta tomorrow to continue my search. I'll let you know how it goes. I have three articles in front of me that I found on the internet and printed out about the R200 swap and EVERY one of them mention the fact that some R200's have a larger bolt pattern and all you need to do is swap it with another pinion flange that has the smaller bolt pattern, but NONE of them say anything about what year, model of car to get it from. But I did post a message where you suggested, so I'm going to check to see if anyone there has replied with a solution. Thanks...talk to ya later. Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted March 16, 2000 Share Posted March 16, 2000 Lee (JuJu), Got the part numbers or car info for the radiator hoses that you found to work with your 85 Camaro AL Rad, 327, etc.? BTW, is that the AL rad that JTR recommends? I'm using the one they recommend. Thanks, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike kZ Posted March 16, 2000 Share Posted March 16, 2000 Wow! What a pain in the *** Lee!I did have one of those JTR flanges, but sold it because I didn't need it with my 12 bolt rear end. Again let me know if you need help, or how it goes. Yea, we can hook up at lunch or something, that would be great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Scott Posted March 16, 2000 Author Share Posted March 16, 2000 I'm sold on the T5 idea...Alright, whos going to be in Colorado next weekend? Just kidding, it'll be sometime this summer for the swap. Lee, Let me pick your brain for one more question. I've seen a couple of different ratios offered in the T5s. What are they for the WC T5s? Yor rear problems sound frustrating. A little bailing wire and duct tape go a long way! Thanks again for the good info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 16, 2000 Share Posted March 16, 2000 Pete, I don't have those part numbers here with me...but I'm sure that I have the receipt for them at home. I did the same thing John did...I asked them if I could go in the back and look around. Yes, I am using the GM radiator that they recommend in the JTR manual...the GM radiator part number is 3054101. The hoses that I am using are the corrigated "flex" type. I just measured the outside diameter of the top and bottom hose connections on the radiator and took a tape measure with me to the parts store and found hoses that worked perfectly. I believe that I got them from "Advance Auto Parts", but I've bought so much from so many different places I can't be positive about that. But I don't think you will have a problem...just measure the radiator ports so you'll know what inside diameter you need on the hoses, and also measure an approx length for each hose so you'll know they will be long enough. If I remember correctly, the bottom hose was easy to find because the water pump and bottom radiator port is the same size...but the top thermostat water neck and top radiator port was different sizes. The top radiator port is a little smaller than the water neck, but I found it at the same place after a little searching. If you can't find them, then let me know an I'll look through my receipts and get you those part numbers. See ya... Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 16, 2000 Share Posted March 16, 2000 Mikekz, No worries mate!!! I think I have got it under control. I went back to ZAtlanta today and found an even "beefyer" flange that will fit my R200...it's got like a 3 1/4" bolt pattern. Although it still won't bolt to my driveshaft, but I took it across the street to the place where I had the driveshaft made and they DO make a rear driveshaft flange in THAT bolt pattern that uses Chevy u-joints. "WHEW!!!" I'm relieved...but won't be totally relieved until I get home tonight and make absolutely sure that it fits. Now I'm worried about if that bigger R200 flange is going to fit above the front diff mount without scrubbing. I had problems before with my beefy rear driveshaft flange banging my swaybar when I would put it in reverse and give it too much throttle. If I eased the throttle down very gentle in reverse it wouldn't bump, but if I gave it too much it would raise a SERIOUS ruckus! BAM, BAM, BAM!!! So I had to shim up the back of the sway bar to eliminate that. But I think that problem might be because of my front diff mount being worn out. But, I'll let you know how it fits...see ya. Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 16, 2000 Share Posted March 16, 2000 John, I think you'll be REAL happy with the stick. And if there's still good snow up there at Copper or Vail, then HEY!, I'll be there! So, just how far ARE you from the resorts? I'm pretty sure that the ratios for the WC and non-WC T5's are about the same. There were just a couple of differences...1st gear is a bit lower in some and 5th gear was a little higher in some. Here is some of what I've found on the net. Transmission Ratios T5 (83-84) 2.95 1.93 1.29 1.00 0.73 T5 (85-93) 3.35 1.93 1.29 1.00 0.68 T56(93+) 3.36 2.07 1.35 1.00 0.80 0.62 GM 700-R4 3.06 1.62 1.00 0.70 GM TH 350 2.52 1.52 1.00 GM TH 400 2.48 1.48 1.00 In 1985 ( -1989) the T5 was upgraded to the 'World Class T5' improvements include: tapered roller bearings on the countershaft caged needle bearings under 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gears on the mainshaft double synchronizers on 1st and 2nd steel blocker rings with friction linings on 3rd and 4th torque capacity remains at 265 lbs-ft because of the new 1st gear ratio being 3.35 vs the 83.5-84's 2.95 new gear ratios include (85-89 T5's) 3.35/1.93/1.29/1.00/0.68 TQ capacity is 265 lbs-ft In 1990 the T5 was upgraded again with the following improvements: 4615 alloy steel for the cluster & 3rd gear 4620 alloy steel for 2nd gear a coarser pitch was used on 2nd and 3rd improving strength these upgrades upped the torque capacity to 300 lbs-ftdespite the 3.35 1st gear. (90-93) gear ratios are 3.35/1.93/1.33/1.00/0.68 TQ capacity is 300 lbs-ft I think that some of this stuff is Mustang information, but from what I've read the ratios are the same...You can go to Altavista or Yahoo and do a search on "Borg Warner T5" and find all kinds of stuff. I'm still looking for another site that had REALLY good info on it, and as soon as I do, I will let you know what the address is, but here's the address to the site I got this from...See ya... http://www.iaw.on.ca/%7Eaubertin/88mgt/misc/tranny.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike kZ Posted March 16, 2000 Share Posted March 16, 2000 Lee you got some T56 numbers wrong, here's a list. '93 - 2.97, 2.07, 1.43, 0.80, 0.62 400 lb-ft torque rating '94-'97 - 2.66, 1.78, 1.30, 1.00, 0.74, 0.50 450 lb-ft torque rating Just for everyone's info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 16, 2000 Share Posted March 16, 2000 Mikekz, Yep, sorry about that...Did they put any T56's in Mustangs? The site that I got that info from had ALOT of Mustang and Cobra stuff on it. But MAN!, that '94-'97 T56 is the one that I will go with, whenever I have the money to do it. I can't even imagine what kind of top end I would have with that tranny...wait let me go to the calculation website and check it out...... Hey!...it says that with 3.54 I will be going about 200MPH at 4500RPM or 350 MPH at 8000RPM...I think that I could live with that! HA! Can you say, "TIME FOR A ROLL CAGE!!!" Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike kZ Posted March 17, 2000 Share Posted March 17, 2000 No, they didn't come in a Mustang, but I think they have some sort of adapter for it to fit. I've got a '96 T56 with 20,000 miles on it. Can't wait to see what it does! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Scott Posted March 17, 2000 Author Share Posted March 17, 2000 Holy Smokes! You guys are 'da Gear Gurus! 3.35 1st is stinkin' low for a standard! I thought shifting before redline in 1st was a challange now. Thanks again for the info. Before you go pushing into the 200s, or 30 for that matter, tighten down every nut and bolt on the thing, and then do it again. During a high speed run in mine, the tension rod came loose. Changing lanes @ 100+ without my input kinda' sucked. We got dumped on (snow) yesterday. 1 1/2 to 3 hours from the good ski resorts. Rck mnt natl prk, less than an hour. Bandimere (mile high nats.) 1 hour. Bring your Oxygen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted March 17, 2000 Share Posted March 17, 2000 The 2000 Cobra R mustang has a T56 in it. At least that's according to Road and Track magazine and Car and Driver TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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